You serious, Clark?
🤣 My dad and I say this to each other whenever one of us is gullible. I never see anyone quote it out in the wild.
She can’t even vulcan salute correctly, that’s gang sign
Money doesn’t exist in Star Trek but credits do in Star Wars.
Money exists in Star Trek, the Federation just doesn’t use it. the Ferengi love the stuff though
They occasionally reference “Federation Credits”, but I think it’s mainly for use outside the Federation.
That’s the greatest accomplishment of the Federation, tricking the Ferengi! Internally money isn’t used anymore, but to trade with the Ferengi they use these Non Federation Tokens, which have no real value.
This is just a world building issue that comes with hundreds of writers over the decades. Who knows how money works. Someone will say something, then ten years later, another writer wont get the note and write something that conflicts.
Federation credits? Federation credits are no good out here. I need something more real.
Pressed latinum bars?
deleted by creator
Star Wars never got replicators, but they did get sweet laser swords
Fuck laser swords, i want food without cooking.
Star wars kind of has that, if ‘just add water’ counts as ‘without cooking’
Best I can do is different colored milk, but I will throw in some space wizards and what the hell personal starships for everyone.
My latinum! It’s a fake! It’s all worthless gold!!!
They don’t have money but they do have the classic authoritarian hierarchy of SciFi.
Want to travel the galaxy? You need a starship. How do you get a starship? Join the federation.
Picard retired to a grape farm in France. How did he get that perk? Can anyone have a grape farm in France?
SciFi has an inherent power imbalance between the fleet and grounders. This comes from the ability to move around and drop bombs on people. As much as they try to stay in a socialist paradise, they still have tons of incidents that end up being solved the starfleet way.
It’s a quote from starship troopers, but the idea of “Service guarantees citizenship” is what draws fascists to SciFi. It’s a tough problem to fix in fiction and most of the time it’s overlooked because spaceships are cool on paper. They make great entertainment.
The reality is that serving in the federation usually would mean you’ve never been on a starship bridge. You’re 20 levels down in a maintenance hold with no outside view. Nobody tells you shit and all you know is the ship is being fired at and you’re fucking terrified.
Even if you can pull up an external view on your tablet (which is a massive security problem), you still don’t have any control over the fight. Now you can watch torpedoes coming straight at you and realize the captain can’t stop it, and you can’t either…
Morale would be constantly in the toilet, and without a bigger reward than to explore strange new worlds you can’t see from the hold, people would be constantly quitting.
In conclusion, I’m not saying that star trek is fascist. I’m just saying it hand waves away 90% of the problems with their alleged utopia and people like watching action packed SciFi adventures.
I have a whole separate rant about weapons like lasers that travel at the speed of light. In the real world most fights would happen across distances, with ships being undetectable against the blackness of space, until a beam comes out of nowhere and instantly destroys your ship. But because it’s fiction you can ignore this.
FRIENDLY NOTE: I don’t mean this to sound combative, I just want to offer a different (more optimistic) perspective.
What’s missing here is the central conceit of Trek: that humanity grew up. We could have a utopia now if people would just stop being greedy little shits, and decided to embrace empathy and forgiveness. There’s nothing stopping every single person in a modern conflict from dropping their weapons, but we still want vengeance and punishment. and I’m not saying I’m above that: someone kills someone I love, and I’m going to want blood. On paper I’m against capital punishment, but I know if I was faced with a war on my doorstep, bombs being dropped, my morals may not hold.
In Star Trek, they had WW3/the Eugenics Wars, and after that…humanity finally had enough. Never again, but for all the ills of humanity, in a way.
So very few people in the Trek world would actually complain about working a shit detail, because they’re in it for the greater good. We saw in TNG episodes that randos from the 20th century could just waltz around the ship at their leisure, and how lax security is…because people just generally behaved well. Humanity really did bind themselves to a stronger social contract, if that’s the right term.
As for needing ships: there seem to be plenty of civilian ships out there, from trading and light exploration to proper science vessels. Not all Starfleet, though the shows have focused on them. So I can only imagine there’s plenty of opportunity for non-Starfleet folks to get out there.
Granted, DS9 pushed back on all this a little, as the Maquis are comprised of a lot of Federation members that went feral/colonial and don’t hold themselves to the Federation ideals that seem to keep the rest of humanity and others acting in good faith at almost all times. Likewise still plenty of BadMirals out there, and they do show the Tom Paris-es of the world in some kind of prison, so it’s not all roses, and could definitely be spun as drops of dystopia in a utopia, but we’re also told (and have no reason to doubt) that it’s all well-above board, humane, and focused on rehabilitation instead of punishment.
Also, all that said, I do wish it wasn’t so hierarchical, but that’s my anarchist streak flaring up.
To reply to myself, because it merits its own giant text box: for anarchist-minded folks like myself, I’d highly recommend reading Homage to Catalonia, because it gives some glimpse of how things might work in a less-hierarchical military (in the cases like in Trek’s Starfleet that weapons are sometimes unfortunately needed).
https://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0201111.txt
The main sections I want to quote are:
The essential point of the system was social equality between officers and men. Everyone from general to private drew the same pay, ate the same food, wore the same clothes, and mingled on terms of complete equality. If you wanted to slap the general commanding the division on the back and ask him for a cigarette, you could do so, and no one thought it curious. In theory at any rate each militia was a democracy and not a hierarchy. It was understood that orders had to be obeyed, but it was also understood that when you gave an order you gave it as comrade to comrade and not as superior to inferior. There were officers and N.C.O.s but there was no military rank in the ordinary sense; no titles, no badges, no heel-clicking and saluting. They had attempted to produce within the militias a sort of temporary working model of the classless society. Of course there was no perfect equality, but there was a nearer approach to it than I had ever seen or than I would have thought conceivable in time of war.
But I admit that at first sight the state of affairs at the front horrified me. How on earth could the war be won by an army of this type? It was what everyone was saying at the time, and though it was true it was also unreasonable. For in the circumstances the militias could not have been much better than they were. A modern mechanized army does not spring up out of the ground, and if the Government had waited until it had trained troops at its disposal, Franco would never have been resisted. Later it became the fashion to decry the militias, and therefore to pretend that the faults which were due to lack of training and weapons were the result of the equalitarian system. Actually, a newly raised draft of militia was an undisciplined mob not because the officers called the private ‘Comrade’ but because raw troops are always an undisciplined mob. In practice the democratic ‘revolutionary’ type of discipline is more reliable than might be expected. In a workers’ army discipline is theoretically voluntary. It is based on class-loyalty, whereas the discipline of a bourgeois conscript army is based ultimately on fear. (The Popular Army that replaced the militias was midway between the two types.) In the militias the bullying and abuse that go on in an ordinary army would never have been tolerated for a moment. The normal military punishments existed, but they were only invoked for very serious offences. When a man refused to obey an order you did not immediately get him punished; you first appealed to him in the name of comradeship. Cynical people with no experience of handling men will say instantly that this would never ‘work’, but as a matter of fact it does ‘work’ in the long run. The discipline of even the worst drafts of militia visibly improved as time went on. In January the job of keeping a dozen raw recruits up to the mark almost turned my hair grey. In May for a short while I was acting-lieutenant in command of about thirty men, English and Spanish. We had all been under fire for months, and I never had the slightest difficulty in getting an order obeyed or in getting men to volunteer for a dangerous job. ‘Revolutionary’ discipline depends on political consciousness–on an understanding of why orders must be obeyed; it takes time to diffuse this, but it also takes time to drill a man into an automaton on the barrack-square. The journalists who sneered at the militia-system seldom remembered that the militias had to hold the line while the Popular Army was training in the rear. And it is a tribute to the strength of ‘revolutionary’ discipline that the militias stayed in the field at all. For until about June 1937 there was nothing to keep them there, except class loyalty. Individual deserters could be shot–were shot, occasionally–but if a thousand men had decided to walk out of the line together there was no force to stop them. A conscript army in the same circumstances–with its battle-police removed–would have melted away. Yet the militias held the line, though God knows they won very few victories, and even individual desertions were not common. In four or five months in the P.O.U.M. militia I only heard of four men deserting, and two of those were fairly certainly spies who had enlisted to obtain information. At the beginning the apparent chaos, the general lack of training, the fact that you often had to argue for five minutes before you could get an order obeyed, appalled and infuriated me. I had British Army ideas, and certainly the Spanish militias were very unlike the British Army. But considering the circumstances they were better troops than one had any right to expect.
The oligarchs and billionaires who own the corporate mainstream media and both political parties are the ones stirring up WOKE issues. Why? So you all hate each other and take your eye off the billionaire thieves stealing everything. This is why we can’t have nice things.
Steve Shives has entered the chat
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
StAr tReK is TOO DIVERSE, tHatS wHy I lIkE Babylon 5!
[insert heavy breathing and unchecked drooling]
she probably cheered for the bajor occupation or the government during the bell riots
Eugenics program? So this Khan guy is a good guy?
Babylon 5 is too liberal, that’s why I like Farscape
Farscape is cool. Star Trek is cool. Star Wars is okay too I guess; not hating, I just don’t like them as much as the rest of the world seems to.
Obviously. Because Firefly is the superior show, right?
I mean Firefly is ok, but the original Battlestar Galactica is still supreme.
I loved the original BG!! But man it didn’t age well :(
I believe you are all wrong. Commando Cody is the most excellent science fiction program ever made.
severe lack of stargate in this thread
ronon dex > aquaman
Commando Cody? Bah. The 1935 film The Transatlantic Tunnel is the height of science fiction on film.
Disney did accidentally turn the two part story arc of space liberals restoring the status quo after it fell to space fascism into a three part warning that liberalism will always fall to fascism by allowing it to thrive in the first place by refusing to address wealth inequality and outright complacency in spite of all the warnings in the galaxy so that’s fun.
Farscape isn’t horny enough. That’s why I like LEXX
Lexx isn’t british enough, that’s why i watch red dwarf.
Red Dwarf isn’t wet enough, that’s why I watch SeaQuest DSV
Farscape is too queer, that’s why i like Lexx
Hey, Babylon 5 gave us
BesterMirror Chekov.Talk to me about Babylon 5. What all is woke in it. Never watched it so I don’t know.
Well let’s see, there’s an episode with a dockworker’s strike, in which a “negotiator” is sent in who’s position is basically “I’ll pretend to ask nicely but the only tactic I have is this in-universe law that says I can use the military to force you back to work.” The letter of that in-universe law (the “Rush Act”) is “The local military commander can break strikes by any means he deems necessary.” And Commander Sinclair decides to pay the dockworkers what they demand out of the military budget of the station. So the union ultimately wins.
There’s several times when some character, often a human but sometimes an alien, walks up to some other kind of alien and says “We don’t want you FREAKS coming in and stealing our JOBS!” and they’re always depicted as obviously in the wrong. Basically in the script it says “A Republican happens, and gets dealt with.”
There’s a whole episode with a religious exchange, all the various aliens are invited to demonstrate their planet’s “dominant religion.” When it’s the human’s turn, Sinclair takes the alien crew down a hallway with a long line of various different kinds of priests, ministers, monks, etc. The first guy in line is an atheist. The point being “Earth is diverse as fuck, yo.”
The show just barely glances off a lesbian relationship, and the show’s attitude says “What? You didn’t have a problem with the five other romantic couples we’ve seen so far, what’s your problem with this one?”
Oh, then there’s the whole major plot of a socially conservative president sliding Earth’s entire government into totalitarianism with the backing of a hostile alien race thing.
Haven’t watched it in years myself, but unless you can define “woke” I’m not going to make any assumptions.
“Woke” has come to mean “Not completely adhering to Republican culture war dogma.”
Even that doesn’t really define it.
Just making sure here, you want me to rigorously define the political position and identity of platformless reactionaries?
Not at all, in fact I’d rather “woke” be defined by what they really mean - feminism, inclusivity, equality, etc. Let’s make them say what they actually mean without hiding behind a nebulous term like “woke”.
It has an alien species where the religious group has quotes that are directly from Carl Sagan (and they’re have more of a philosophy than a religion, at least in most ways). It generally treats religion with more respect than Roddenberry did, in a “all religion has some good parts to it, but extremism is a problem” kind of way.
One of its major plot arcs is all about how democracies fall into fascism. I thought it was a bit heavy handed at the time, but now it feels too real.
Skirts around a pair of characters in a lesbian relationship, but like most shows at the time, it doesn’t come right out and say it. They 100% banged one night, though.
It’s also military science fiction. That always seems to invite right wingers who love the asthetic but ignore the themes. Same problem with Star Trek and Star Wars.
Just say you don’t watch sci fi movies. Sheesh so desperate to fit in. Why does everyone want to be a nerd now? Didn’t boomers invent beating up nerds???
Nerds became cool once they realized they could exploit their autism at tech companies
Many tech companies are led by neurodiverse people, too. Zuckerberg is definitely not just the typical billionaire sociopath.
Disney bad. Star Wars is Disney. Star Wars woke. Star Trek not Disney. Star Trek not woke. Star Trek good.
Star Trek not woke.
Star Trek first interacial kiss on screen. Star Trek early with minorities in major roles without calling attention to it.
first interacial kiss
First black/white kiss. There was an earlier white/Asian kiss.
Doesn’t count because Asians are “good” minorities. /s
George Takei might not agree since he was kept in a camp as a child.
Asians aren’t people! /S
Although, tbf in the US, because of slavery(then segregation). Black/White race relations trends to overshadow everything else.
Interestingly, the first interracial kiss also featured William Shatner, when he kissed France Nuyen on the Ed Sullivan Show.
I’m not trying to undermine the idea that Star Trek was progressive for its time, far from it, but since no one else has pointed this out, I thought I’d say it. Star Trek was NOT the first interracial kiss on television. In fact, the actors’ lips never touched in the shot.
Well, sort of. I’ve been reading William Shatner’s autobiography, and they had to fight really hard to include an interracial kiss. The network was going to forbid it, telling Rodenberry that televisions across the South would rather black out their televisions for an hour than allow something so highly offensive. When he insisted upon it, they kept making concessions Rodenberry wouldn’t agree to, like instead having Uhura kiss Spock, since it there would be a little more disconnect between reality. Eventually, Rodenberry offered to film the kiss both ways—one way with their lips actually touching, the other with Uhura’s back to the camera as they embraced, giving the illusion that they kissed without their lips ever touching. The actors were really upset about it, because It was originally going to be a passionate kiss, but the only way they allowed it to be filmed on television was if the actors displayed clear discomfort—which could be used to reinforce the idea that interracial relationships were bad.
Soo…yeah! That’s your Star Trek history lesson for the day! (I’ve never watched the original episode, I’ve only watched TNG and Discovery for myself, so this is all secondary info, but if you watch the episode, you can see for yourself.)
I think with Disney and a lot of companies now it’s more obvious that they are consciously trying to “look good” vs Star Trek was a lot more genuine and authentic with it’s intention to include these things, and it was challenging status quo back then whereas today it’s very mainstream (which is a good thing). This is also what I think is (sometimes intentionally) misinterpreted with the “woke” concerns from the right, cause criticizing the company for morally branding themselves can be legit, but only if the actual idea of including and respecting people isn’t lumped in with it. A legit issue with these huge companies that exploit workers is how they commodify their visibly “diverse” employees and claim the virtue for themselves rather than all the effort it took from workers to actually be treated with dignity. Amazon may very well be welcoming and inclusive but they’re gonna fight their diverse employees when they want better conditions and pay. DEI doesn’t erase the inherent conflict between employers and employees.
Post scarcity societies can’t be approached in any meaningful way with modern economic theories.
Star Trek is neither socialist nor capitalist, as both are systems designed to manage and portion out scarcity, and are based on economic theories that lack any predictive abilities in systems that don’t work in a context of scarce resources that need administration.
Neither the labour theory of value nor marginal utility theory make any sense when all resources are trivial to obtain for individuals and whatever resources your community uses can be reused virtually endlessly within the limits of entropy.
Are we really dealing with “scarcity” at this point?
Supermarkets throw away literal millions of tonnes of food annually. “Reduce, reuse, recycle” has become a hollow mantra that cannot be truly adopted by the profit driven design philosophies of consumer products. Sustainability is being treated like some chic perk rather than a critical topic that must be taken seriously if we want any hope for our futures.
All these things are profoundly capitalist problems. Of course, it’s not like marxist-leninist ‘experiments’ fared any better, devolving into their own variants of capitalism, but there are many other socialist ideologies to consider (such as anarchism…)
We are, because people want luxury goods too. Post-scarcity is about being able to produce most goods with barely any human labor (would absolutely be true for food if every person on earth only worked in food production or to produce machinery needed for it), which we aren’t even close to. AI and automation might get us there (though it’s questionable when the cycle of just investing the newfound labor capacity into more luxuries will stop, if ever), but people are actively resisting that (reasonably so) because the current economic system basically everywhere is horribly rigged towards funnelling the excess wealth to rich individuals rather than improving the living standards of society as a whole.
Idk, I’d say we want quality goods, and are lead to believe that these desires can be fulfilled by the lofty luxury goods market which is founded more on artificial scarcity than material scarcity. Even when rare materials and expensive labour are involved the fact that this simply makes them “more valuable” seems more important than any actual need, or lack of alternatives. Meanwhile, affordable products get enshittified, shorter lifespans, etc.
though it’s questionable when the cycle of just investing the newfound labor capacity into more luxuries will stop, if ever
Which is precisely why “post-scarcity” can only be reached with actual societal change, not just technological advancement.
deleted by creator
I don’t think you can discount first contact’s affect on that shift. Finding out you’re not alone in the universe would surely have a massive societal impact.
Do these people think before they fucking talk?
Not before, nor during, nor after.
They hardly think at all.
Tell me you’re not really a fan of either franchise without telling me.
Also, she’s giving the LL&P sign backwards.
Why does it feel so much like a white person trying to throw a gang sign?
I’m waiting to enjoy your appropriate meme for this topic.
Username checks out
Username checks out. Not sure if you were waiting for that…
She’s a cylon sympathizer
I maintain everyone on Battlestar Galactica was a Cylon.
That or Cylonism can spread as an STD.
This solves all plotholes, no further questions.
I would have thought they’d be more of a Starship Troopers fan, since the satire would fly over the fash’s head.
TBF Heinlein didn’t mean for it to be a satire, Verhoeven just turned it into one.
Nice one! I’m ultra-progressive but love that movie.
I mean, so long as you see the satire of the film, that’s not incompatible.