4 pane comic of dolan on the left and spooderman on the right
pane 1 (dolan): cum join opensurce cummunity!
pane 2 (spooderman): shure! how joyn?
pane 3 (dolan): Here discord! (with discord logo)
pane 4 (spooderman with tears in eyes): y u do dis?
Am I the odd one out for actually liking discord? Or is most of this hate specifically for using discord for FOSS projects? As a replacement for MSN Messenger/Skype/Ventrillo Discord is actually pretty great for hanging out with friends
Discord is an OK chat app. But it’s TERRIBLE as a support forum. It’s precisely the latter that everyone is complaining about.
I also need to point out here that anything posted to discord is now their intellectual property by law. That’s quite a deal breaker and honestly should not work with any open source projects
I didn’t know that. That single reason alone is enough to completely exclude discord from open source projects.
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Replacement for TS3, Skype, whatever = Good
1st party quick support channel = Good
Community maintenance = Good
Documentation = Not good
Basically Github issues replacement = Bad
Knowledgebase = BadFor chatting with friends it’s fine! The hate is when it’s used for public documentation and communication, because it isn’t public.
BuT itS NoT OpEnSoUrCE reeeeee
This.
(Hardcore) Lemmy: Everything has to be (F)OSS
Me: Even a media library like Plex?
Them: Maybe not everythingHypocrisy…Go and finally install Jellyfin folks. Give those fine folks a 10€/$ donation.
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Is that the ones who tell your coworkers what porn you enjoyed last night?
What?
Sorry, I remembered incorrectly. It’s plex, not jellyfin
Ah that thing.
Lmao that truly was a thing.
It’s a private silo with no public indexing by search. Makes it terrible for technical topics fine for a chat platform.
It’s a bad hybrid of chat and forum. None of the advantages of rich forum posts and typically too may participants for it to be easy to follow. Noticeable if you are not in the main timezone as the others.
Discord has threads and topics, but these features are a bolted on afterthought instead of core functionality so it just doesn’t work as well
I think the thread(s) aren’t that hard to navigate or search in - assuming everything else has been set by admins properly (rarely the case). YMMV. Third-party ticketing/integration bots with major services are seamless, but or course depends on your use case.
Ah, so the hate is mostly for it being used for things that it wasnt really built for. I can get that
Exactly!
the hate is because discord actively makes it harder to find and get support for anything. It’s adding extra steps to something that doesnt need them.
I use discord to chat with my friends and weird people online, not to complain about the nonfunctional nature of software to people i dont know.
No, you’re not, but the circle jerk here is definitely against discord.
I would accept discord/irc over mailing list. But nothing beats a proper forum website.
And no, subreddit is not a proper forum.For the main project I’m a maintainer on we do have forums too but they’re pretty dead, we mostly just use Discord because that’s what everyone else seems to be using.
Discord is absolute trash if you’re a user searching for solutions. It simply doesn’t turn up in web searches. Why would you want your users to ask the same questions again and again?
It just so happens to be where all our users end up anyway so for us it’s been okay for the most part. Having moderator commands for frequently asked questions, and automating frequently asked questions tends to help even more. Discord also seems to work well for projects far larger than ours, ones like RPCS3 etc.
After reading the comments on several communities including Lemmy, reddit, YouTube and several others, I don’t get the feeling that FOSS users are as enthusiastic about discord as you portray. Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps it’s a restriction that you impose on your users?
Besides, all the bells and whistles of Discord don’t solve the biggest gripe that I have with it - the searchability and discoverability of questions and answers. Despite the history recording in Discord, it acts essentially as an information black hole. People’s efforts in solving problems are just lost because they can’t be found again.
And finally, there’s one thing that corporate social media has proven time and again. Eventually all of them pivot for some reason or another. Perhaps they want to monetize the platform on unacceptable terms (like reddit recently). That will happen to discord too some day. They are holding the community content hostage. Don’t make the mistake of thinking that they won’t ever try to make money off it, cutting the community from it.
Why compare Discord to web forums when it’s more like IRC? What’s the searchability and discoverability of that?
I didn’t advocate for IRC. I’m strongly on the side of forums. But in case you want to compare, IRC is still a better deal than Discord. IRC has loggers and searchable web archives where it matters. Discord on the other hand is holding the conversation hostage. Someday the closed nature of discord will come to bite. The honeymoon isn’t going to last forever.
I just think it’s a bad argument. Telling somebody to use web forums instead of Discord is ignorant of why people use Discord in the first place.
I mean, I don’t disagree with you, but our forums are dead. Our users do seem to like Discord, we also have a Matrix and IRC but those are dead too. Discord is where our users seem to flock to.
All I can really say is my experiences, and what I have seen in other cases too.
I wish Discord weren’t the giant that it was, and I wish it were open-source, but unfortunately that’s just how these things go sometimes I guess.
Again, I think another good example of this is RPCS3. They have forums that are pretty dead, and they have a Discord that has a ton of users in there.
There is one possible explanation for that conundrum. There are two types of people who are looking for solutions:
-
Those who want quick answers. They don’t want to do the research - to see if the problem has been addressed before. They don’t care about if the question has been asked before.
-
Those who prefer searching for solutions. They don’t like joining any community just to search for those solutions.
Group 2 is going to be very invisible to you (maintainers), because they ask questions only if they can’t solve the problem themselves and nobody has asked it before. (I know this because that’s me). This group isn’t a minority.
Group 1 is the vocal type that you are more likely to interact with, since their first instinct is to ask. If you provide them a choice between forums and chat rooms, they always choose chats because that’s where they can get away with providing minimal background information on their questions and doing minimal to no research.
This doesn’t mean that the majority of your users are happy with chatrooms. It’s just that your observations are going to show this survivorship bias.
-
You’re the maintainer and presumably you control the discord server. You can decide to move things to a more available platform by removing Discord as an option.
Is it worth the risk to just stop having a Discord. Users that strongly care will use something else?
Our users do seem to like Discord, we also have a Matrix and IRC but those are dead too. Discord is where our users seem to flock to.
What is really happening is that people are looking for documentation or support, seeing that the forum, the IRC and the Matrix are dead, that the only other thing is discord, and give up. Minus some fraction who already use it for other purposes (gaming, probably) and don’t mind using it.
But from your perspective, it looks like everybody is joining discord and liking it, because all of the other people just give up. It’s only a very particular demographic that uses discord. Most likely (I might be wrong, but this is what I guess) very young, male, gamer, european descendent, and from a relatively wealthy western country. That’s a very small part of humanity.
If you as the maintainer go and use the forums, and maybe announce this in discord, the users will follow.
We have been using the forums. It’s been announced in Discord, we have a webhook that posts in our main Discord channel every time there’s a post in our main forum section. Every announcement goes to both the forums and the Discord, and the Discord announcements link to the forum posts.
We are using the forums. Our forums are still dead.
I’m a member of a Discord that is the primary source of discussion and information about a piece of hardware, including technical & usage tips, firmware announcements, etc. It’s a terrible way to track this stuff.
That said, the only other forums that have decent communities around it are Reddit, Facebook, and Elektronauts - none of which are even close to as active, but in which many of us will post important info & tips to get the news out. Over 3 years into the project (which is not open source) it would be ridiculous to try shifting the whole community to a new platform. We’re kinda stuck.
Luckily the community as a whole seems to realise this, so we happily answer noob questions over and over and provide links to the appropriate resources, discussions, and pinned posts without snark or judgement. We’ve all been there. It’s the nature of the beast, it’s not efficient, and it’s not the end of the world.
Finally, with the state of search engines in decline due to monetisation, encroachment of AI bloat, and general enshittification, it’s a matter of time before very little real information will be easily searchable. Insular communities who decide to withdraw and do everything their own, better way will likely become the norm. The internet needs a reset anyway.
Like a survivorship bias?
Everything beats a proper forum because most proper forums are basically dead since small projects won’t have many users and only a small number will sign up for a specific forum.
Forums used to be great since there was not much else, they still are good for large communities, but other than that, nope.
So let people SSO into your forum with Github?
Sure, give it a try and let me know. I would expect that will fail too in these days.
only a small number will sign up for a specific forum
Most people don’t have to sign-up, 90% of cases should resolve on just searching the problem. Good chances it was already asked and answered.
Most of the time, forums with few users aren’t dead, they’re just really slow, whenever you post a question - expect at least 12-hour delay. I’ve never seen a message on Discord answered 12 hours later - you either get somewhat instant response or it’s ghosted forever. Also good luck asking questions if there’s heated/rapid discussion in the room, or you have a little time and other responsibilities other than checking discord every couple minutes.That’s because when you ask a question on discord it’s only visible for a few seconds
I prefer mailing lists to forums, and forums to IRC, Slack to Discord and Discord is dead last just because it’s so fucking annoying. Forums can be annoying too but they are far more usable/searchable than the stream of consciousness, ephemeral nature of chat.
over mailing list.
LKML
at least subreddits show up in google results, that’s the only good thing about them.
as yet
gotta love the modern internet…
yay.
You brought back to me some good old memories with that Donald duck meme lol
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Lemmy communities with discord channels are really quite something.
Extra special.
Using matrix would be better. Server plugins can publish channels like a public blog, viewable in a web browser.
I’m still struggling to find a decent client for matrix though
Cinny and Hydrogen are good
The people in this thread are open source power users who don’t get and don’t want the features that discord offers. It’s no surprise you’d rather have your forum back. I don’t think that’s how it’s going to work.
Privacy is good and what discord does is bad. But don’t lecture me on how convient and nice it is to use or run something like matrix, if this is your idea of a user onboarding experience:
Half this thread is mad discord saves messages and the other half is mad that discord doesn’t save messages. You can’t make this shit up lmao.
I’ll eat all the downvotes but objectively discord is the best chatting service available to the public for discussion. Blows irc out of the water easily. The only point I’ll concede on is the phone number bullshit but otherwise I’d take it over anything else.
Never had issues using their search feature for dev discords. It’s keyword based; truly stupid simple and easy to follow.
And yes I’ve used irc actively. It’s delusional to think that is somehow easier to follow.
The search has issues but I don’t fuck with irc channels because there is literally NEVER anyone there. I don’t understand IRC, either. I’m young, sorry
IRC would have been the best tool if it did session logging instead of requiring the use of bouncers. IRC is text-only, nonproprietary and completely distraction-free.
But you don’t have to use IRC. There are more modern federated protocols like Matrix and XMPP that do session logging. There are quite a lot of FOSS communities on them that are very active.
However, the main complaint here isn’t about Discord vs other chat protocols. It’s about the use of Discord as a community support forum. Unlike forums like Discourse, Discord messages aren’t searchable on the web. If a person asks a question on it and gets a solution, it’s then lost forever. Another person with the same question has to ask again. It completely defeats the utility of FOSS - of reusing someone else’s solutions.
I’m not sure you understand what “objectively” actually means… Care to provide your data in support of your objective conclusion?
Sure.
- FREE with zero maintenance or resources required on my end since day 1
- All messages and uploads are saved and searchable to anyone who joins a discord server. Some of my servers are from 2016 and all 100k messages up to this day are still there with each and every file untouched whenever I search for something. Same thing if I join a new server.
No other app has these two points along with the incredible amount of features and QoL Discord has. This is objectively true.
Good for you, you have a short list of requirements out of a chat service and discord perfectly fills your niche. But different people have different requirements for chat, and they don’t align. And network effects force people who have differing requirements to use the service with the most users which sucks.
For instance here are things that I require from any chat service that I use that discord completely falls flat at:
- Ability to run it on my linux machine without using an electron client (npm is a huge mess of supply chain attacks and I refuse to run any software that is likely to contain dependencies from it)
- Ability to run it on my AOSP phone which does not have any google play services installed
- Ability to write software to back up messages without fear of a company changing their API and breaking my backup system
- Ability to search answers without having to join a ‘server’
Just join a server, find your answer, and leave. Why is that so scary? You don’t even have to interact with anyone.
That lazy culture is exactly why discord is bad for the job. I search for solutions first, instead of barging in with a question that may have been asked and resolved a thousand times before.
Discord has a search feature 🤦you still don’t have to interact with anyone…
At the end of the day all of the reasons you stated maybe <1% of people care about and most of the points have nothing to do with the chatting features itself. If I’m honest it’s basically paranoia and fear for the insanely low chance something goes slightly wrong. It’s like refusing to leave your house because you can spontaneously get struck by lightning. 🤷
Whatever solution you’re using I would bet most people would find incredibly annoying to use from a usability perspective. As it would lack the 8 years worth of features and QoL discord introduced.
So we have a philosophical difference and that’s that.
Agreed, but my point is with a centralized network the lowest common denominator wins. There is no reason you can’t have QoL features on an open network, and thusly let everyone have the features that they care most about.
Can you imagine what a shithole the internet would have been if email wasn’t federated an open? There is absolutely no way that whatever centralized bullshit would have spawned instead would already be either long gone or enshittified to the point of being useless.
this is not explicitly true, moderation is still a labor requirement.
Messages get deleted from bans, channels wipes cause problems, sometimes discord just decides people shouldnt exist anymore.
Moderation is a requirement with anything involving people so I don’t see that as a discord specific problem. If anything it’s easier than a forum since I don’t have to deal with spam bots myself for the most part.
The channel wipe thing is fair. You’re right about that.
i dont see how it would be easier on discord, discord is literally known only for bot/hacked account issues. I’ve never seen a spam bot on a forum before.
Plus nobody is likely to target a forum, everybody is targeting discord already. And on top of that the discord banning/automoderation isnt great, i’ve heard its getting better though.
I follow a niche community and the recent bans for their board is all spam bots even in 2024. I don’t want to put up with that nonsense and discord actively tries to curb that so the choice is easy.
idk you’d have to compare it between a few forums, and a few discord servers of the same size in order to figure it out.
I’d still be surprised to see people actually botting forums. It really just doesn’t make any sense.
Do you want to alienate users who are banned from Discord or don’t want to use proprietary software?
Yup. I am not giving up that convenience for a tiny fractional minority. They’re the ones wanting to die on a hill over a trivial problem not me.
People willing to give up freedom for a little convenience is how we end up with enshittification.
That’s quite a blanket statement when things like Steam exist.
the irony here is that discord quite literally has quantum state messages/posts, unless you NAIL the search perfectly, you’re gonna get everything but the exact message you wanted. I mean sure the keywords make sense, but try searching for two or three keywords in a server with tens of thousands of message, or better yet, not knowing what specific keywords to use.
i can’t tell you the amount of times i’ve tried searching for an embed with words only to realize that apparently, discord is completely incapable of searching through embed names.
Discord is alright as a chat platform, would actually be better if it were a universal platform base, like matrix, or get this, IRC. Not being stuck on a shitty broken electron app would nice from time to time.
Telegram would be much better if you want some chat based discusstions. Search indexable forums are the best to find help
I don’t think it is better at all. Unlike Discord, which might allow you to exist without a phone number, Telegram requires it right upfront. And it removed the ability to register from desktop, at least without spinning up an Android VM.
Managing chats and pinning rules/important info in single chat is much better imo to “manage” a chat community. I agree your points though
Laughs in matrix and element
Neither here nor there, but how typical is it to turn on notifications for a medium size discord server? Would you consider it?
discord is the best villain but also the worst platform ever
I feel like so many people talk about how it’s not searchable or other concerns but for me I don’t really care so much because there’s an even bigger deal breaker which is their license agreement, where you sign away the property rights of anything you post, giving away your entire open source project… This alone should disqualify it for any work of any creative sort. They own things you give them. I would never use it for development because of this.
every time I run into an issue with Proton-GE it makes me angry again: https://github.com/GloriousEggroll/proton-ge-custom?tab=readme-ov-file#2-if-you-have-an-issue-that-happens-with-my-proton-ge-build-provided-from-this-repository-that-does--not--happen-on-valves-proton-please-do-not-open-a-bug-report-on-valves-bug-tracker-instead-contact-me-on-discord-about-the-issue
FCK DSCRD!
(They should use lemmy instead :-P)
Discord is trash, but nobody seems to have presented anything better.
Nani? Where have you been since 1983?
I just wanna chat over the internet using some sort of relay. If only there were a solution.
You’ve just given a brilliant idea! Let’s build server-client type of chat thingie.
I propose naming it Internet Relay Chat!
That sounds hard and discord already has my retinal scans
chat over the internet using some sort of relay
Like an internet relay chat? I wonder if that exists. We could call it IRC
Earth? Or at least someplace that resembles it.
Discord is great for providing a community chatroom for both voice and text. It started, and still is, as the combination of IRC and Teamspeak/Ventrilo, now just with more bloat and memes. That people are trying to use the “IRCTeamspeak” as the entire information platform for their open source project is just mental, as it puts everything hidden behind a login requirement, unindexable and unsearchable on any search engine in an ever-changing stream of unrelated discussion.
Stick your bug reports and issues in a Github/Gitlab etc tracker, your information into a Wiki, and set up a forum. The discord can exist alongside these, but it cannot properly replace any of them.
I feel it maybe an administration issues. There are third-party bots allowing integration, channel/thread/role permissions which I find great but can be a hassle to set up.
A perfectly setup discord server with automation and webhooks, updates, permissions would be great. But setup of one is too complicated for the masses.
Segregating discord channels bases on roles, and staying on top of it with user influx - that would be perfect. Less than a percent (anectode) of channels can achieve simplicity like this.
Other then it being closed garden that isn’t indexable on the web why do you think it’s trash?
The stuff before it were not good.
Other than it being closed garden that isn’t indexable on the web
“Apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?”
