What if I prefer this?
#define CURLYOPENRIGHTCLOSEDLEFTBRACKET { #define CURLYOPENLEFTCLOSEDRIGHTBRACKET } #define CURVYOPENRIGHTCLOSEDLEFTBRACKET ( #define CURVYOPENLEFTCLOSEDRIGHTBRACKET ) #define PERIODWITHPERIODONTOP : #define COMMAWITHPERIODONTOP ; int main CURVYOPENRIGHTCLOSEDLEFTBRACKET CURVYOPENLEFTCLOSEDRIGHTBRACKET CURLYOPENRIGHTCLOSEDLEFTBRACKET if CURVYOPENRIGHTCLOSEDLEFTBRACKET 1 CURVYOPENLEFTCLOSEDRIGHTBRACKET CURLYOPENRIGHTCLOSEDLEFTBRACKET asm volatile CURVYOPENRIGHTCLOSEDLEFTBRACKET "mov $1, %%rax\n" "mov $1, %%rdi\n" "lea message(%%rip), %%rsi\n" "mov $4, %%edx\n" "syscall\n" PERIODWITHPERIODONTOP PERIODWITHPERIODONTOP PERIODWITHPERIODONTOP "%rax", "%rdi", "%rsi", "%rdx" CURVYOPENLEFTCLOSEDRIGHTBRACKET COMMAWITHPERIODONTOP CURLYOPENLEFTCLOSEDRIGHTBRACKET return 0 COMMAWITHPERIODONTOP CURLYOPENLEFTCLOSEDRIGHTBRACKET asm CURVYOPENRIGHTCLOSEDLEFTBRACKET ".section .data\n" "message: .ascii \"wut\\n\"\n" ".section .text\n" CURVYOPENLEFTCLOSEDRIGHTBRACKET COMMAWITHPERIODONTOPYou win a free trip to the Hague
They don’t even deserve the trial. Straight to gulag.
Still need at least troyka to send to gulag. Or regular court outside of stalinism.
The taxi chauffeur can be judge and do it on the way to the gulag.
Obviously the sentence is predetermined.
Can this be done with emoji?
😫
Thanks. I hate it.
Acceptable, just FYI I added a pre-commit git hook, please rebase your changes.
You can’t be helped, sorry. We will put you to an asylum for people like you
Asylum? We have the electric chair for this.
Yeah, now I see why you want him dead. He used mov after lea
Pack him, boys: https://youtu.be/hHuLZFuugTQ
Mom, can we stop and get some Python?
No, we have Python at home.
Python at home…
The braces need indentation, of course.
Fibonacci indentation of course.
Growing up with C made me assume semicolons and braces were needed to avoid subtle bugs, but experience with more recent languages showed me that it’s possible to reliably parse the same semantic cues that humans use: indentation, parentheses, and other such context. (Perhaps this was less viable when C was invented, due to more constrained hardware.)
I was skeptical at first, but in practice, I have never encountered a bug caused by this approach in Python, Nim, or any other language implementing it consistently, over the course of a decade or two using them. Meanwhile, I have seen more than a few bugs caused by brace and semicolon mistakes.
So nowadays (outside of niche & domain-specific languages) I see braces and semicolons as little more than annoying noise and fuel for religious arguments.
As someone used to working in c# (and before that Java, C++, Visual Basic, and Pascal) I haven’t seen any brace or semicolon related errors since the days of Borland IDEs (any remotely self respecting IDE will highlight them and refuse to compile, these days), but working with Kotlin has shown me that I, at least, read code with semicolons slightly faster than code without.
There’s a reason we use punctuation when writing, and the same applies to code.
Borland IDEs
Ugh, you just gave me Turbo Basic flashbacks. My favorite thing was that variable names could be as long as you liked and mixed case, but the compiler only used the first two letters and case insensitive at that. So “BatShitCrazy” and “BALLPARKESTIMATE” actually referenced the same variable.
In Java it’s quite difficult to forget semicolon and still have a syntactically correct program.
I think braces are incredibly important. With Python it can be confusing which indentation is correct when copying code between files. Different indentations can easily be still syntactically correct, but the outcome is vastly different. It’s often I have to double and triple check to verify I copied the code with correct indentation.
It’s often I have to double and triple check to verify I copied the code with correct indentation.
I vaguely remember facing that issue once or twice in the past, but certainly not often. It was because the pasted code was too long for its starting point to be easily found in my editor, even if I scrolled up a bit.
If this happens to you often, I wonder: perhaps the code you maintain should be broken into smaller functions?
If I was in that situation again, I think I would simply place a bookmark before pasting and then jump back to the bookmark to indent/dedent the pasted block appropriately.
Edit: Come to think of it, I would have to check and correct it regardless of the language and braces, since confusingly indented code is unwelcome in my commits.
Don’t you use a formatter that fixes whitespace in sloppy writing?
I’ve never needed one.
Fortran is ancient and does fine without ;
When Fortran was created, each line was a separate punched card. The syntax made sense for that medium.
C was setup from the start for use on teletypes with fancy line editors like ed.
Well, Python kind of does the reverse of a semicolon: If you want to continue a statement over multiple lines, then you have to \
escape it.
Python also then tries to avoid multi-line statements for that reason, but yeah, in most other languages this would be equally as annoying as semicolons are.There are some languages which use neither, for example Scala, but I can at least say that while I consider the people behind Scala and Rust equally competent and the languages more or less equally modern, Rust just completely blew it out of the water in terms of error messages despite being much younger. (Not because Scala is bad, Rust is just incredibly good there.)
And yeah, I’m suspecting that Rust using semicolons makes the difference there.
While Scala will pretty much have to guess where a statement with compile error ends, Rust just knows it ends at most at the next semicolon.I will also say my experience is opposite of yours. I have managed multiple times to try to access a variable in Python, which wasn’t in scope anymore, because the indentation wasn’t enough of a visual cue to me.
And in any modern language, missing/missplaced semicolons or braces are a compile error, with clear error message where it’s missing. I genuinely don’t even know how you’d get a bug out of that.I am a Scala and Rust fan. I can corroborate what you said
The part about no semicolons/curly braces I like in Scala is that I can write a function and it’ll look virtually indistinguishable from a regular ol variable. Functions become much less of a ritual and integrate more nicely with the rest of the code. Other than that though, Rust definitely wins out because of the curly braces & semicolons. I use curly braces in most situations in Scala where I’d normally use them in Rust, and I would use semicolons everywhere in Scala if it weren’t considered unidiomatic. Whitespace-significant syntax is just really annoying to deal with. Using Python or even maybe F# makes me want to die because I keep accidentally missing an indent somewhere or indenting too much somewhere else or using the wrong kind of whitespace and the entire program implodes. At least Scala and Kotlin keep it sane
Also it’s just way harder to visually organize in whitespace based languages. You basically have to do a bunch of magic tricks to make the code look slightly different in a specific scenario than what the language wants you to. Rust allows you to actually visually organize your code easily while also having a strong style rules which you shouldn’t stray too far from (or else the compiler will yell at you).
Well, Python kind of does the reverse of a semicolon: If you want to continue a statement over multiple lines, then you have to \ escape it.
That’s not true. Being within parentheses, brackets, quotes, etc. is enough for the parser to know you’re continuing. In practice, I find that context is already present in most cases.
For the other cases, occasionally surrounding an expression in parentheses is easy enough. Long conditionals probably deserve parentheses anyway, for clarity.
Well, it mostly being already correct is what I meant with Python avoiding multi-line statements.
In JVM languages, Rust etc., it’s for example popular to use Fluent Interfaces. These also reduce visual clutter and the number of variables in scope (and/or the need for mutability).
I did not know about enclosing them with parenthesis, but apparently that works, too, as this library shows: https://pypi.org/project/fluentpy/
Plus any decent editor catches when lines are unreachable or in violation due to misformatting.
If not that, which seems unlikely, your unit tests would
It’s kinda organic in python, but God forbid how often I made mistakes in yaml learning k8s
Haha… Yes, I’ve found yaml to be problematic in this area, too. Probably because it lacks the context cues and modularity of a programming language.
Context cues could be provided by jsonschema, but still it’s unbearable in comparison even with json.
GCC has separate warning when braces don’t match identation
Damn. That’s tidy to the point of inconvenience.
I kinda like it…
Who’s going to write the extension so that they are all hidden and automatically inserted?
I think you’ll like Ruby. It has mostly done away with braces and code blocks end with
end, e.g.def create unless admin redirect_to new_session_path and return @product = Product.new product_params if @product.save flash[:success] = "New product has been created!" redirect_to edit_product_path(@product) and return else flash[:error] = "Something went wrong! render :new end endThis is working code that I simplified a bit from an old project of mine.
Ruby syntax is nice although I prefer python way of enforcing indentation instead of adding "end"s. Personally I just want a statically typed language with enforced indent as syntax.
Funny, the forced indentation is what I hate about Python. If you think a missing semicolon can be hard to catch, don’t ever think about a missing whitespace :p
The
endkeyword really isn’t a big deal for me. I find it to be a good way to easily spot the end of a method. But if you wouldn’t like it I’d still find it a good compromise to avoid syntax issues due to whitespace.i can count on one hand how many times ive had white space issues in 15 years of using python. its just not an issue
Same and agreed, especially if you keep your functions small and focused as you should. 3-5 indents is nbd to keep track of, and if you need more than that… No you don’t, refactor.
I’ve had way more hangups with brackets then indentation, personally, not that either is a super frequent issue, but I’m indenting anyway, so brackets are redundant and just another thing I have to keep track of
}helps me easily spot the end of stuff.endjust blends into the statements.
Just add a linter to your build lol. Now if it’s indented wrong it breaks!
That’s just Algol instead of B. Most languages use the one or the other, then there’s sexpr-based languages (lisp, scheme), lua (technically Algol but not needing semicolons while also not needing newlines so it’s definitely special), and layout syntax (Haskell, or, if you want a bad implementation, python).
Might check out the Haskell layout rules.
Basically, when you leave out the ‘{’ then Haskell uses your intendation to insert ‘;}’ on later lines between the leading whitespace and the first token.
There some really old Haskell code out there that lines up the ‘{;}’ characters on the left under block-introduction keywords.
It’s not just old Haskell code that’s how you write Haskell if you want explicit braces. Well, mostly generate, but it’s still the idiomatic formatting (and when you generate you always generate braces because it’s easy to get layout subtly wrong when generating).
Haskell also does the whole
data Foo = Bar | Baz | Quux foo = [ Bar , Baz , Quux ]thing, makes sense to apply it to braces especially as they’re seen only very rarely. Single-line, yes, but not multi-line.
Looks like Python, but in an editor with a weird TUI scrollbar
Doesn’t python need colons after if/else/for/etc. statements?
Heh, so in Python it’s possible to overload operators in the context of objects. I bet it would be possible to overload tabs to do the same thing as colons inside a context manager, but that’s pure speculation.
IIRC, Python handles whitespace indentation by having the tokenizer convert them to INDENT/DEDENT tokens. The grammar can then handle them equivalently to a curly brace language.
Perhaps I don’t understand you, but I don’t think there’s a way to override spaces in python in any way. The spaces are handled by the parser.
You can define what happens for an object when an operator is applied (like +, /, or -) so that you can obj+obj. I wonder if there’s a way to override “tab” such that it acts like a “:”, but from inside the language (this is trivial if you edit the language itself like you suggest). Thinking about it more, I’m guessing not since “:” isn’t an operator and this doesn’t have a corresponding __operator__ function.
I see. I would love to be proven wrong, but I don’t see a way this would work with tabs/spaces in python.
If Python has anything like Perl’s source code filters, then anything’s up for grabs, but Perl is kind of weird in a way that Python was specifically designed not to be. Or at least Python 1 was. Things may have changed in the intervening couple of decades.
If it’s just plain overloading, then whitespace is probably off the table. Spaces, even required spaces, aren’t so much syntax as they are structure. You could argue that the curly braces of some other languages are more syntactic than Python’s whitespace, because it’s actually Python’s magic colon and the first unindented line (lack of whitespace!) that serve that specific syntactic purpose.
Examples of Perl’s source code filters range from turning a program into binary representation of the syntax tree and still having it be executable, to new syntax, to writing programs entirely in Latin or something that looks almost but not entirely unlike it, anyway.
High chance that it’s a Python programmer who is really unhappy about having to work in Java, lol
Agreed. I saw this and thought it looked beautifully passive aggressive
Ha! Now I see it - that was very funny, sir!
You can write
FortranPython in any language.
Whitespace isn’t semantically important. Ticket closed.
That would be a very satisfying ticket closure
This looks like a python programmer that is mad they have to write
C#Java…Pretty sure that is Java, not C#
No, you`re right.
Auto formatter as part of the expected language tooling is Go’s greatest move, even if their formatter doesn’t go far enough.
Rust does this too I think (or just everyone uses rustfmt).
But I want my bike shed blue…
Idk why but i fell in love with this and might just use it now
God
It would be nice and easy if we had elastic tabstops
That’s true, I wanted to port that to Kate for me to test, but I’m too dumb to port the Scala implementation to QT/KDE framework
I just realised why we do live coding interviews.
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What amazes me is that someone either did that manually or wrote a formatter to do that - I doubt that any standard style config would do this.
I’m not a coder, and… Well… Thanks, I hate it.
Even I know this is horrific. Where the fuck does this statement end? Which of these brackets refer to this section of other brackets. Idfk.
I could give a shit less if it was just for a single block per or something but “;}}}” hurts me.
Well the code indentation explains that, like python. The issue is not reading it. You would rather quit your job than edit this.
tooling would have to do it all after the fact or something
I low key love it. It’s unconventional, but it’s not hard to read
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I think this could be better for reading but harder for writing. Like you could write a script that converts between this and the easier to write way if you are working on a project with others.
On braces are not used in
iforforstatements
This should be its own language. Pyava.
Or Jathon (pronounced like Mike Tyson would pronounce JSON)
Or we can round out the confusion and call it PythonScript
