TL;DR: We tried to move the community because of moderatorial concerns, but fumbled how we went about doing so.
First and Foremost:
We’d like to formally apologize for springing this on you all out of nowhere, and for taking so long to respond to the backlash. With retrospect, we understand that we should have notified you all beforehand to create an opportunity to give us feedback. We understand that a lot of respect and trust was lost, and we expect it’ll take a lot of work and a lot of time before we can earn it back, but we would be grateful if y’all gave us that chance.
What happened, and why?
The primary issue that incited this was because we don’t fully agree with the admin’s moderation policies. By and large they do a great job and align with us on mod actions, but there have been several cases where we strongly disagreed, and our choices were overruled.
For example, 2 months ago, Kolanaki reached out to us via email and said they were banned from 196 for “playing the victim” and asked us why we banned him, but we didn’t. Moss talked to them and realized that the ban was unjust after reviewing the comment he was banned for. If he had never contacted us, we wouldn’t have known about the ban, and they would have still thought we banned them.
There were a few similar events in a short time frame, leading to a few posts/comments in the community about the heavier modding policies. It’s possible some posts/comments were misunderstood by Ada, or she interpreted things differently than we would have, but it led to some bans that we felt were indeed heavy-handed, and would not violate our rules in even the most uncharitable of interpretations. We have found that this is an ongoing trend when it comes to moderation of our community from the Admins. We oppose this because it leads to many users who otherwise mean well ending up alienated and removed for reasons that are frankly completely unfair. This is, in our opinion, counter to what we set out to build in our community.
It was made clear to us that it was their instance, and that we didn’t have a say in who would be banned and what would be removed. This is, of course, perfectly valid. It’s their instance, therefore it’s up to them to decide what goes, but we no longer wanted to be the ones seen as accountable for moderation actions we have no control over. For this reason, we wanted to transfer out of lemmy.blahaj.zone. As much as we wanted to stay in the LGBTQ instance, we couldn’t come to an agreement with Ada, so we talked to her about transferring out and got her blessing.
How we messed up
The most major failing on our part is, of course, that we didn’t announce the migration beforehand. Besides that, we also didn’t explain why we made the choices we made and only gave very vague answers. We avoided sharing the justification for our actions because we didn’t want to cause drama and/or exacerbate the situation, but this lack of substantiating our actions only caused the situation to worsen.
Going forward (if we may), we won’t make the same mistakes again. From now on, we will attempt to be as transparent as possible.
FAQ
Why we chose lemmy.world
Many people have been asking about why we moved to lemmy.world. It already hosts the majority of large communities and besides this uncomfortable level of centralization, it has also been somewhat controversial as of late. Despite that, we still chose lemmy.world due to the following reasons:
- Moss’s communication with the admins, and their agreement to let us moderate the community as we see fit. Ruud, after looking over our rules, agreed to abstain from taking admin action to curate or otherwise moderate our community, unless absolutely necessary.
- The instance is large enough to support traffic without performance issues (other instances like lemm.ee, sh.itjust.works, and lemmy.dbzer0.com would have been fine too), and the instance has a certain degree of guaranteed longevity.
- Moss was given a list that was kindly made by the lemmy.world people as a part of our transfer detailing those who are banned on Blahaj.zone, but not on Lemmy.world, making moderation discrepancies much easier to clean up post-transfer.
- Our agreement with Ruud predated the now-rescinded policy changes
- It was, to the best of our knowledge, the most federated-with instance. We have come to understand that this is not necessarily the case.
Why not have another team take over the original 196?
This is a similar situation with what happened over on Reddit. 196 mods didn’t agree with admins and were eventually replaced (difference here is that we were not forced out, but chose to leave). As Lemmy was a large gathering spot for people fleeing Reddit, we felt it was better to try to keep the community together and move together. Having another team take over splits the community. The more fragmentation there is, the less longevity and volume of community each skew will have.
What about the possibility of more trolls, neoliberals, bad actors, sealions, and transphobes on Lemmy.world?
Another huge issue was that the mods and the community were not on the same page regarding lemmy.world, their admins, and their policies. We understand the concern about trolls/bad-actors/transphobes, but we feel well-equipped to handle these issues. In addition, we’ve been in contact with the lemmy.world admins for a while now, and they’ve assured us that they’d allow us to moderate our community however we saw fit. All this being said, we still failed to communicate that to the community before taking action, which has undermined any assurances that we have given after the fact. We cannot apologize enough for that.
What about the people who are using instances that are defederated from lemmy.world (e.g. Beehaw)
This is an unfortunate issue that we were not aware of at the time of transfer. We’re not sure what the solution is, but want to make our community as accessible as possible. Community solutions are welcome.
Did you migrate because of X? (addressing speculation)
- We didn’t migrate due to anything related to neopronouns
- We didn’t migrate due to us supposedly not wanting to use blahaj.zone lemmy accounts
- We didn’t migrate due to us having friends who were banned from lemmy.blahaj.zone
- We didn’t migrate due to us wanting to make the space less queer/leftist/etc
- We didn’t migrate due to us getting secretly ousted by the Blahaj admin team
What now?
Well, we’re not sure. We could go back on our decision and stay on blahaj.zone, continue on lemmy.world, do both, or try something else. Truth be told, we don’t know what to do. For now, we will leave the comments open to civil community discourse, and choose our course of action from there.
Sincerely, Qaz, Rmbp, Greembow, A_Very_big_Fan, Peachy, and Moss.
I think what brother’s me most here is the entitlement and contempt displayed for your own community. You were told repeatedly that nobody wanted this, and yet you doubled down saying “We know what’s best”. You acted like the community belongs to the moderation team, and they can do with it as they please.
It took a mass exodus for you to finally seriously consider other viewpoints. I don’t think that’s an acceptable way for any moderation team to treat their own community.
That’s not something that can simply be fixed by an apology. It’s something that would require some significant introspection.
That’s not something that can simply be fixed by an apology. It’s something that would require some significant introspection.
The whole team should resign
Tbh I’m happy with the new onehundredninetysix com, I’d prefer if these mods and anyone that supports their decisions move to .world
after seeing they added this part, they wont
Why not have another team take over the original 196?
Yeah, that’s not gonna fly. No-one is suggesting we should split the community (though their actions may have already caused that as a side effect).
We are saying they are done as mods and are welcome to earn back trust as regular members of the community instead. In my opinion, they are never going to earn back trust as mods.
Of course that’s just my views on it. I guess we will see what everyone else thinks.
Having another team take over splits the community.
I think its a bit too late for that excuse 💀
Really? All of them? Personally, I’d be happy enough taking no more than two heads for this. Whatever the case, I think the main priority should be adding new mods whose attitudes are more in line with the comm.
Anyway, I’m sure there’s stuff that’s happened in private that I’m unaware of, but it seems like qaz has been pretty level-headed about the whole thing, Rmbp, despite approving of the move and thus being generally out of touch with the community claims (believably, IMO) to have had no knowledge of, let alone input over the process prior to the call being made, greembow hasn’t posted anything in a year, and Peachy has wisely kept pretty quiet about it, with a grand total of two (one if we’re not counting duplicates) pretty neutral comments in threads about the mod team’s decision.
Yes, all this and the fact that the move was months in the making but had almost zero* communication with the broader community really just paints a picture of a thoroughly dysfunctional mod team acting in a bubble, but from what little I understand I’d argue this particular fiasco was done mostly on the initiative of the “head honcho of 196” and A_Very_Big_Fan, who made the announcements and were the ones to double down on it in the face of community pushback.
* a month or so ago when PJ really got his knickers in a twist about not being allowed to misgender neopronoun users by LBZ’s site rules one of the mods mentioned they were considering a move to dotworld and got pushback then too
Your comment makes sense. To be honest as they stated that everyone one was involved in the redaction of the last communication it seemed just easier to ask for a complete uphold of the team.
Really? All of them?
According to the mod team, they were all in on this decision.
So all of them makes sense to me.
According to the mod team, this post is from all of them. Nevertheless, Rmbp is in this reply section disputing this, saying that he didn’t write a word of it.
Dunno about you, but it looks to me like a small number of mods have a habit of calling all the shots and then sharing the blame when it backfires.
Its possible.
But here’s the thing - there is no way to know for sure. Clearly, none of them resigned on hearing about it, so at some level they are onboard.
Also, at no point in any of these months-long internal discussions did any of these folks say “Hey, this isn’t right, people need to be informed of what we are thinking and why”, or “I can’t agree to this, I’m going to post about it and resign”.
So I still think all of them should resign. Going along with a terrible decision is not, IMO, any better.
I’m not sure if they deleted it or I just can’t find it, but there was a post on the LW destination that said the mods talked about the near-universal, overwhelmingly negative response, and were split 2-2 on what to do: either cancel the plans, or keep going anyway. They only made this post after considering the aforementioned near-universal, overwhelmingly response a tiebreaker.
I think that really encapsulates the problem.
so this only gets undone once there is another community created on .LBZ that starts getting traction and your new community on .world risks becoming irrelevant, along with your relative power in the situation…
I’m already at !onehundredninetysix@lemmy.blahaj.zone and it’s fun there. Not gonna go to .world
To me, it sound like the best option for the mod team would be a it’s own, dedicated instance just for 196.
That would be nice, and we did want to but it’s expensive and none of us can afford it.
All do respect(which is none) this is the second time you have tried to forceably move this community to .world. We are collectively done with this bullshit and just leaving for !onehundredninetysix@lemmy.blahaj.zone . Thank you for the good year of 2024 with some amazing memes long live onehundredninetysix
I refuse to believe that six individuals can be so enormously out of touch with the community they (used to) mod… what’s the real story?
my honest opinion on the whole matter, and this is as someone who really doesn’t care either way. You should give up on the community here. I don’t mean that in a mean way, I mean you chose to do a decision that was drastically unfavorable to the majority of the current community on this instance it seems.
Regardless of intentions, your long past the turning point of being able to backtrack on your choice and re-enter the community just reading the comments here tells you that honestly your best bet is probably to just continue with your plan at this point, even if you did decide to unlock the community here it’s clear that you’ve lost all trust in the majority of the users that are still participating on this post, so they’ll just stay in the new community instead of returning.
In the words of Kenny Rogers, You have to know when to hold them, know when to fold them, know when to walk away and know when to run.
This is a clear “know when to run” instance. There is no favorable outcome for you on this community you won’t gain that trust back and there are far too many people still pissed about this issue, you are better off continuing the plan on LW and just let the people who didn’t agree with it stay on the new community they made (or unlock the old community but you have already been pretty solid on that one)
Thats just my input as a lurking third party.
edit: looks like my feed was outdated, I just got the unlocked post, I still stand firm on my opinion on it though.
edit 2: shouldn’t have second guessed myself, guess I had the name right the first time lmao
That’s not a Johnny Cash song. “The gambler” by Kenny Rogers
I had Kenny Rogers originally, but when i second guessed myself and google searched it both names came up, they both sang it it seems. I used Johnny Cash cause figured the name might be easier to recognize XD I went ahead and changed it back again.
I’m not very involved in the community either, but I would say though that community trust isn’t a binary thing, and all people, even leaders, are allowed to make mistakes. From a pure political perspective, I don’t think there will be enough of a hostile response form the users to start any significant fragmentation of the community, which is the main concern when leaders lose trust from the community.
I think you should leave this community to a new team and leave for lw ✌️
In an unrelated note, I still don’t know what 196 means and at this point I’m afraid to ask.
From what I understand, back on Reddit it was a subreddit that had only 1 rule: If you found your way to that subreddit somehow, you had to post something before you left. A lot of people titled their post “rule” or included the word “rule” for that reason.
As for why 196, i believe that was the dorm room number of the founder of that subreddit. I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong.
This is correct, but the original was 195. They closed it I think either because it got bigger than they intended or because they were graduating or something, so the successor community 196 was made.
Start your own community. Be original
?we did? for both of these communities??
I thought Ada added you as a mod to this comm well after it’s creation?
not really. it had existed for a couple weeks unmoderated. no banner, icon, whatever
They mean instance
ohhhh
to be honest, I never trusted the mod team much for many minor things and now I dont trust u at all for this huge thing that u’ve been hiding for months apparently, if this community is coming back Id personally still prefer a different mod team
We could go back on our decision and stay on blahaj.zone, continue on lemmy.world, do both, or try something else.
I guess u could moderate the .world comm for the people that prefer that instance since there seems to be people that do including u, and the people that were going to mod the onehundredninetysix comm would mod this one
I cannot stress enough how untrustworthy any of you moderators are now, because how do any of us know that in a few days or weeks or months you won’t just randomly close the community and decide you’re moving elsewhere. In short, I really don’t care if you continue to move over, or stay on .world, or do anything else, I don’t want any part of your community anymore. And I don’t see how anyone else would either, but that’s entirely their business
why not open the original blahaj zone 196, and let ada appoint new mods? if yall want to move and have your heart set on that, thats fine, but its clear that there are many people who would lose access to their favorite community if the original 196 remains locked. having multiple instances of the same community is by no means a bad thing, it simply gives more reach for our communities, and more options for every user.
the whole point of the fediverse is that us users can make experiences we like for eachother. its very clear that many people like the way things are, yall dont have to, but we do. its a community because of everybody who participates, lets try and build communities where our queer and trans friends can feel safe and at home. nothing is lost if we have two communities, only gained. let the nature of the fediverse and federation decide how things play out, not a small group of moderators making unilateral decisions for everybody.
having multiple instances of the same community is by no means a bad thing
also theres already different 196s through the internet like on reddit, tumblr, here, etc all with their own differences and I think thats pretty cool :3
There are considering unlocking it: https://lemmy.world/comment/14570102
Thanks for the info. When I got online today, I was very confused at what had gone down; I appreciate people such as yourself who have made it easier to follow current events in this tiny corner of the internet
Re: let Ada appoint new mods
Because the problem was the admins, not the mods. Ada was banning users without telling the mods. Read the post linked that got a ban.
But the community doesn’t have a problem with the admin, the mods have a problem.
And instead of leaving, they thought they could take the whole community with them without asking
Ada was banning users without telling the mods.
I was banning users from the whole instance, not specifically from 196. Instance bans doesn’t get pre-approved by community mods. Which is how every admin on every lemmy instance works, including lemmy.world.
Also just for the record. I think Kolanki deserved it for being an ass and playing the victim. You absolutely need to earn allyship, you can’t just self-proclaim to be an Ally when you don’t actually support queer people in any way.
@moss@lemmy.blahaj.zone @moss@lemmy.world Yes I would’ve banned him if I were in Ada’s position too.
no need to ping me. I disagree.
I would probably also consider this whole fiasco and pushback against Kolanki’s very justified ban an act of bigot apologia, something else that is utterly unacceptable.
likewise.
that’s ridiculous
this is a quote from ada
“I have asked 196 for years now to have an active blahaj.zone mod so that someone can deal with the blahaj.zone reports that constantly come through and build up, but still, the best we got were mods with alt accounts that get checked every couple of days, leaving me to deal with the build up of reports on 196. Sometimes they would hang around there for days while I waited for a 196 mod to log in and look at them. And because you don’t like the way I deal with them, you drag me over the coals for my moderation style, despite no one from 196 stepping up to deal with those reports on a regular basis.”
the issue is not ada banning users without telling mods, it was mods not doing their job and ada stepping in to take action when no one else would.
i read the post that was used as an example of adas supposed overreach, but that commenter was basically saying that cis people cant be allys because trans people arent nice enough to them, reeks of transphobia to me.
Still No
You goofed up and lost the community’s trust, own to it and step down.
Maybe touch some grass too.