Russia is a terrorist state. #SlavaUkraini #ArmUkraineForVictory
I love all my fellow Russians and Ukrainians who rise above the brainwashing that this commenter is demonstrating.
Fuck patriotism and slogans, that’s what politicians want you to do to die for them. All wars would be over in a day if people just realized this as politicians can’t fight their wars without people like this commenter.
Ukraine was invaded bro. Their politicians did exactly nothing to encourage war.
Maybe theirs didn’t, some other countries’ did (and still do) because it advances their interest.
Russia is less terrorist than Azerbaijan, but the latter isn’t even being sanctioned (and there’s been an ICJ decision against them, but everybody ignores it) for starving out a little country of 120k people right now in a medieval siege, and openly stating that they are doing exactly that.
I don’t think Ukraine has lots of problems. At least the aggressor there is recognized for what it is and the victim is recognized for what it is and armed by half the world.
I don’t think Ukraine deserves any attention, in fact, since in Artsakh they support Azerbaijan. Support of now finally actual genocide happening is what makes me think that.
Russian likes to threaten the world with nukes - nuclear war would inevitably lead to a nuclear holocaust that would cause the near extinction of the human species.
I don’t give a flying fuck about Azerbaijan. Russia is terrorizing the entire species of humanity. Until you’re threatening to wipe out the entire planet, you are not a terrorist on the same level as Russia.
Russian likes to threaten the world with nukes
Tactical nukes usually.
nuclear war would inevitably lead to a nuclear holocaust that would cause the near extinction of the human species.
If you use tactical nukes, then it’s not much more significant than using thermobaric ordnance or cassettes or even chemical weapons or anything else kinda nasty and non-conventional.
It won’t lead to a global thermonuclear war and thus a nuclear holocaust any more than use of sarin in Syria did.
However! If you don’t give a flying fuck about a smaller holocaust then I don’t give one about your bigger one even if it involves me, I just don’t care.
If you don’t give a flying fuck about a smaller holocaust then I don’t give one about your bigger one even if it involves me, I just don’t care.
Sure, Russia threatens the entire human species, but if it doesn’t suit your liberal virtue-signalling for some marginalized minority, then it’s fine with you.
What’s the survival of humanity vs your imaginary liberal internet points.
Sure, Russia threatens the entire human species,
Your life is worth at best as much as any Artsakhi farmer’s life. In fact much less, if by “the entire human species” you mean yourself.
Now, Russia can’t threaten anybody, I’d be surprised if any of those strategic nukes are still operational. I happen to live in Russia and know how things are usually done here. That aside, Russia’s regime consists of thieves and murderers, not some Hollywood fascist hardliners. They care for their lives very much.
but if it doesn’t suit your liberal virtue-signalling for some marginalized minority
At this point I’d actually prefer that somebody nukes the miserable being you are.
And people of Artsakh are very much the majority in their land, however they are besieged and dying from hunger.
But, well, it’s good to know that you care about Ukraine only because of being afraid that, again, somebody nukes you.
Also my ancestors on paternal side happen to be from a certain valley in the province of Tayq, Western Armenia, currently occupied by a certain genocidal NATO country. I won’t buy your bullshit. I’ll care about Ukraine and somebody, again, nuking you personally when enough people care about that, which is never.
The people of Artsakh are also people of the world. Russia is threatening them with extinction too. You don’t actual care about them. You’re a fake and a liar begging for liberal minority points online.
Russia is threatening them in much more material way, with all its deals with Azerbaijan (which would be something sanction-worthy for the latter if it were, I don’t know, Georgia), but it isn’t killing them right now.
You don’t actual care about them.
I very definitely do, my aunt’s husband is from there and a participant of the first war.
You’re a fake and a liar
Judging by your use of the words “liberal” and “minority”, I’d say your opinion on the matter is not worth much, neither are you as a whole.
It won’t lead to a global thermonuclear war and thus a nuclear holocaust any more than use of sarin in Syria did.
You didn’t mention the escalation policy of either of those countries during a war event.
Escalation policies tend to become very elastic when implemented by humans.
They really can get to some limited strategic exchange, but after that point some countries are democratic and that demos which supposedly rules them will tear into pieces everybody preventing the cessation of hostilities, and others are authoritarian, and their authority cares about its lives and well-being the most.
I mean, NATO officials have become much more modest with words about “any attack on NATO territory is an attack on NATO” after a few stray missiles have landed on Polish territory, for example.
Escalation policies tend to become very elastic when implemented by humans.
I’m talking about the Rules of Engagement during wartime. Especially when it comes to the release of nuclear weapons. These rules are very un-elastic.
Each use of nuclear force is responded to by an escalated nuclear force reply. This can keep happening until all the missiles are in the air, flying to their destinations.
I think Ukraine is a western puppet. But that doesn’t mean Russia isn’t also shit.
People can wrap their heads around two mean bullies fighting in a schoolyard. But someone when it’s politics many people want a single bad guy.
Ukraine is not “western” puppet, it’s just a big oligarch-dominated part of the ex-USSR.
Say, Transcaucasia was toxic nationalist-bandit-oligarch dominated, with these components being initially almost equally mixed, and to some extent still is.
Russia was oligarch and FSB dominated, until those merged with FSB being on top.
Ukraine was similar, but oligarchs are on top now.
I wholeheartedly agree that Ukraine is better than Russia. It’s just more similar to Russia in the dimension of evil than most here seem to think.
Now comes the Great Russian Firewall.
The Copper Curtain?
I don’t think they can afford copper at the moment. Try cotton maybe.
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Nope, Proton VPN is super simple and is blocked long ago.
Theoretically, yes, since there are options other than WG/OVPN available through Smart Protocol, which Alternate Routing leverages.
!chapotraphouse@hexbear.net will love this.
After a discussion that lasted for way too long, it appears that they like censorship.
They think that this is a perfectly reasonable argument: https://youtu.be/QFgcqB8-AxE and that the government knows better and thus information should be suppressed.
Absolutely ridiculous…
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/QFgcqB8-AxE
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
!chapotraphouse@hexbear.net will love this.
yo thanks for the hookup was looking for another based instance
subscribed!
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Yes they are. And they shadow delete comments! That’s after several of their members straight up sent abusive messages to me. I of course reported them. That’s when I noticed my comments deleted.
I’m not too worried about it. If that’s how they are with others, their message and community won’t reach far. Fuck em
I would love to see true metrics on what percent of them are Russian, Bots, Eastern European and people living in western countries… considering every other comment from that instance seems to simply be “fuck the west”
But how are their propaganda farms going to be able to pretend they are in your country now?
Maybe they don’t actually have all those propaganda farms that the dems were crying about, did that thought cross your mind?
Before it was widely reported, Twitter’s geocoding feature showed a ton of Russian-based accounts posing as “Americans” and only discussing politics. Would love to see lemmy be more transparent about accounts posting here too, tbh.
I’d say you probably want to check my geolocation?
In all honesty, I would expect at least an organized troll farm to use VPNs ending outside Russia.
Random people in Russia might just act directly, but it’s a red flag that’s easy to pretty-inexpensively eliminate.
googles
It sounds like at least the Internet Research Agency troll farm used VPNs.
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43093390
According to court documents, the IRA took several measures to hide its tracks, duping the technology companies who were unaware, or unable, to stop what was filtering through their systems.
The key - and obvious - move was to hide the fact that these posts were coming from Russia. For that, the IRA is said to have used several Virtual Private Networks - VPNs - to route their operations through computers in the US. The operatives allegedly used stolen identities to set up PayPal accounts using real American names.
Even if it’s just a hash of an ip4, that would go a long way towards identifying who is coming from where
Maybe, but get fucking real.
They exist. Inform yourself on the Internet Research Agency, one of Russia’s state sponsored troll farms. A handful of their activities are well documented in factual records. ‘Dems’ weren’t crying about it, every rational person who doesn’t want foreign interference and disinformation flooding our spaces is concerned about it. This should not be a partisan issue whatsoever.
Yeah, I don’t even really have a problem with RT, as long as it’s labeled so that people understand that it’s the Russian state speaking. But a lot of forums rely more-or-less on the idea that people are more-or-less good faith actors. Very large scale efforts to have people pretend to be someone else and make non-good-faith arguments is something that I think that a lot of our forums can’t today handle well.
Arguably, that’s a technical problem that needs to be fixed in some way.
Sadly, but we have. There is a big propaganda campaign have been raised for the last 2 years. It was here before but not in a such huge amount.
They still get to operate don’t worry!!
official companies are still able to use vpn 😏
Exemptions that only apply rules to the common people. Maybe device registration with an exception using ipv6 address
It was not working 2 day on mobile operators, now waiting full shutdown
yup. kinda same experience. tele2. complete shutdown on my vpn.
Shadowsocks worked fine
Shadowsocks is very difficult to block. What provider do you use for shadowsocks?
However will they get messages through??
how long before our beautiful UE thinks about doing the same?
Is OpenVPN not just SSL traffic?
They can block the default port and IP addresses owned by VPN service providers, but is there any way to block the protocol without block all encrypted web traffic?
SSL is a higher layer thing, isn’t it? A VPN is just encapsulating an IP packet in another IP packet and getting it to the tunnel endpoint. Unless the whole of the inner IP packet is encrypted, the service provider could just sniff your packets and block anything that looks like an IP packet in the outer packet payload?
Unless the whole of the inner IP packet is encrypted,
It is, because they’re inside an encrypted stream of data.
The way OpenVPN works is this:
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OpenVPN establishes a TLS connection to the OpenVPN server.
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Your computer’s kernel generates an IP packet.
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OpenVPN sucks that up, shoves it into the TLS connection. That connection is encrypted, so the network provider cannot see inside it, know whether the data is IP packets or anything else, though I suppose maybe traffic analysis might let one classify a connection as probably being a VPN.
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The data in that connection is broken up into IP packets, went to the OpenVPN server.
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The OpenVPN server decrypts the data in the TLS stream, pulls the original IP packets out.
So the original packets are always encrypted when the network sees them. Only the OpenVPN server can see the unencrypted packet you originally sent.
What @raltoid is saying sounds plausible, though I can’t confirm it myself off-the-cuff – that OpenVPN is detected by looking at somehing unique in the initial handshake.
VPN detection is simple: track new encrypted connections outside of Russia, connect to the same server, check if it replies as a VPN server. If it does, block the shit out of it. No need for packet inspection or any voodoo.
Fair enough. I mean, there are ways around that too, like some port knocking scheme, but I assume that this shadowsocks thing solves the same problem in a better way.
But I do stand by what I was responding to on, the bit about the internal IP packets being encrypted and not readable.
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Blocking all encrypted traffic… fantastic suggestion comrade, I’ll forward this on to the Kremlin. Also, you’ve been drafted.
I suppose with “comrade” you are hinting at Soviet customs, but Russia isn’t the USSR and couldn’t be further from being socialist
Russia isn’t the USSR but it is heading towards the USSR ways, and it’s already there in many aspects. It’s not just on a technical definition, a lot of pro-war and nationalist rhetoric is rooted in the old USSR culture.
The USSR wasn’t socialist, it was communist. And yes I know, it wasn’t real communism because real communism is a utopia.
Russia isn’t implementing maternal paid leave, a good universal healthcare system, guaranteed housing, food, education, and a job, so it’s not heading for the ‘USSR ways’ and the USSR was socialist
what
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Oh please. In all the ways that matter, it is identical.
Settle down, it was a joke
It’s a custom protocol that uses SSL/TLS for key exchange and such, so it can be detected. It’s actually causing huge problems for many large Russian companies, as it’s common to use those protocols for remote access, work, etc.
As mentioned in the article you need something like “Shadowsocks” to avoid protocl blocking, since it fully disguises the traffic as standard SSL/TLS. Which was created for, and is still used to circumvent this type of blocking in “the great firewall of china”.
Yes there is a difference between https traffic.
https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/187649/is-it-possible-to-detect-vpn-in-the-network
tl;dr: You can infer that OpenVPN is used from the key exchange somehow.
Is OpenVPN not just SSL traffic?
It’s not, it’s an IPSec VPN by default which runs over UDP. You can run it via TCP and it operates over the same port as HTTPS (443), but it’s not the same protocol and can be differentiated that way.
A way around this would be to run an SSLVPN with a landing page where you log in instead of using an IPSec VPN or a dedicated SSLVPN client.
Another way around it would be to create a reverse SSH tunnel on a VM/VPC in another country/state and send all your traffic through that.
Is OpenVPN not just SSL traffic?
It’s not, it’s an IPSec VPN by default which runs over UDP. You can run it via TCP and it operates over the same port as HTTPS (443), but it’s not the same protocol and can be differentiated that way.
I think that either I’m misunderstanding what you’re aiming to say, or that this is incorrect.
OpenVPN can run over UDP or TCP, but it’s not IPSec, not even when running over UDP. IPSec is an entirely separate protocol.
There’s still headers and it’s fairly trivial to block using packet analysis. Using other protocols such as SSH tunneling may work (until they try to ban that I suppose). There’s always way around these kind of blocks, it’s a cat and mouse game.
Is this just address/port blocking, or DPI of some kind? I’m wondering what they can trigger off?
vpn traffic isnt directly hidden, but it can be helped along.
youd need to encapsulate your vpn traffic in a different protocol, make sure you shape your traffic to expected values for that protocol and then avoid known vpn endpoints.
Interesting read: https://www.ntkernel.com/how-to-bypass-egypts-wireguard-ban/
In case anyone wondered how to potentially get around this…
- Pay for a server in another country that gives you SSH access
- Create SSH SOCKS tunnel:
ssh -N -D 8008 your-server-ip - Open your browser and set the SOCKS server to
localhost:8008(in Chromium/Firefox you can search for this in Settings)
I’m not 100%, but I think you could set this up for free with an Oracle AlwaysFree tier VM.
(Boo Oracle, yes I know. Still very handy.)
Just looked up Oracle Always Free… Good to know about, thanks!
This is actually pretty interesting, thanks for sharing. Although i live in a third world country that doesnt care about anything at all including piracy, but this tunneling thing looks pretty handy
Couldn’t you also just set the VPN to use port 443?
E: Apparently this isn’t enough. IE, for Wireguard, you would need to find a way to obfuscate the handshake.
So, that’s definitely better than nothing, but your browser isn’t the only thing – though these days, it is a very important thing – that talks to the Internet. If, for example, you’re using a lemmy client to read this, I’d bet that it’s good odds that it doesn’t have SOCKS support.
Though I wouldn’t be surprised if someone has made VPN software that intercepts connections and acts as a proxy SOCKS client, which would make it work more like a traditional VPN if you can reach a remote SOCKS server, though maybe with a performance hit.
googles
Yeah, okay, looks like stunnel can do this on Linux. So it’s a thing.
You don’t need a 100% solution, though, to have a pretty big impact on society. Combine technical barriers with it just being easier to not think about what’s going on outside, maybe some chilling effects from legally going after people who do start doing things that you don’t like (viewing websites, spreading information, etc), and you can control people’s information environment a lot. Make using circumvention solutions illegal – okay, maybe you can bypass their system if you don’t get caught, but do you want to risk it? Make creating or spreading circumvention solutions really illegal. Do you want to risk getting in a lot of trouble so that random other person can get unrestricted or unmonitored Internet access?
On that note, I was reading about the way North Korea does it in an article from someone who got out of North Korea. That is about as close as it gets to a 100% solution. Only a few thousand people are authorized to get Internet access. You need to apply to use the Internet with a couple of days lead time. Each pair of computers has a “librarian” monitoring what the Internet user on each side is doing, and every five minutes or so the computer will halt with whatever you were doing on the screen and require fingerprint re-authorization from the “librarian” to continue. Users are not allowed to view pages in Korean, just English and Chinese (I assume because most information out there that you’d have to go outside North Korea to get access to is likely available in either English or Chinese, and they definitely don’t want people seeing anything out of South Korea).
That pretty much screws North Korea in terms of access to information, is a costly solution, but if you place an absolute priority on control of the information environment, North Korea does prove that it’s possible to take a society there.
North Korea does prove that it’s possible to take a society there.
I don’t think NK took themselves there, they were already there when the internet was invented. Easier to limit access to few people when you have draconian measures in place when access becomes possible.
Having a society that already widely has access to one that has extremely limited access is a lot more difficult.
This is a good point that many don’t think about. Even if you could somehow drop hardware and free starlink into North Korea it wouldn’t even matter because the citizens never grew up on internet culture. No one would be able to figure out what to do with it by the time they got caught.
Unfortunately it would be trivial to block an SSH tunnel like this. I recall reading news 10 years ago (maybe even earlier) some foreign journalist tried this at a Beijing hotel room and got shut down in minutes. That was when people are still using PPTP and L2TP protocols to get around censorship, Wireguard and shadowsocks wouldn’t be born for another couple years.
trivial to block an ssh tunnel like this
Far from trivial unless you’re willing to brick ssh completely, or at least cripple a bunch of non-VPN uses for tunneling. Of course it’s trivial to just block ssh outright, or block tunneling above a certain bandwidth. But that would also block, as an example, most remote IDE sessions, loopback-only server management frontends, etc.
The Kremlin could maybe have something set up that looks for accesses to stuff inside Russia from outside Russia, then flag that IP as suspicious as being a VPN endpoint outside Russia.
So, okay, take this scenario:
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IP A, user inside Russia.
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IP B, VPS outside Russia.
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IP C, service inside Russia that state can monitor.
User in Russia on IP A has an SSH tunnel to VPS on IP B with SOCKS that they control.
That’s fine as long as user is only browsing the Internet outside Russia. But if you’re routing all traffic through the VPS and you use any sites in Russia, the Great Russian Firewall can see the following:
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IP A has a long-running SSH connection to IP B.
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IP B is accessing stuff in Russia.
You could maybe also do heavier-weight traffic analsysis on top of that if you see 1 and 2, or gather data over a longer period of time, but seeing 1 and 2 alone are probably enough to block IP A to IP B connections.
That can be defeated by using two external VPSes, opening an SSH tunnel to the first one, and then talking to SOCKS on the second (maybe with another SSH connection linking the two). But that’s increasing complexity and cost.
can be defeated with two VPSes, but that’s increasing complexity and cost
A marginal increase, perhaps. You don’t need a separate VPS - just a second IP. Accept incoming traffic on port 22 on one, and set the default route for outbound traffic to the other.
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OpenVPN + obfs4proxy should still work. I’ve been using it in China for some time along with a VPN client on Android & windows that support obfs3.
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Use scramble features
ProtonVPN has a “stealth” protocol. Does anyone know if that breaks through?
Absolutely doesn’t. Even tried to go like 100 servers to see.
But nothing related to proton get through
protonvpn hasn’t worked here at all for a long time now lol
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It doesn’t work in China, if that’s any indication.
