It’s like buying a tiara for your fetus, before you even buy a crib.
ALSO, MICROTRANSACTIONS = DLC.
I feel pretty meh about cosmetic micro transactions, so if they wanna include cosmetic micro transactions in the early access to test it out, then meh. But they should be free during early access and then reset it when the game is released. EA is for testing.
Exactly. I don’t know how a lot of these people have opinions that are so wildly different from this.
When you have people paying you for a game that isn’t finished yet, you’re making a compact with them. If you take it seriously, you should be saying “I acknowledge that you people have given me the entire purchase price of this software, even though it is absolutely not finished. Every day that I spend working on this software, from then on, is OWED TO YOU PEOPLE. I will not consider a single moment of my time to truly be my own, until I have paid off that debt, and released a fully featured, complete product, as quickly as possible.”
If you aren’t comfortable with that situation, you shouldn’t enter the Early Access program. It’s not for profiteering. It’s also not for weak people. If you don’t absolutely KNOW that you have the ability to pay off the debt you have incurred, you shouldn’t take on that debt. Nobody is forced to take on that debt. If you want to spend forever and a day making your game as a little hobby project, you can do it without a shitload of other people’s money lying around in your bank account.
And if you want to make microtransaction money, you CERTAINLY shouldn’t be doing it on other people’s investments. Not unless they’re going to get that money back, with an added return.
IDK about “every single moment” being owed. The people working on these games are just employees usually. They didn’t make the promises and don’t have any control over what’s happening. It’s not fair to put them through the ringer just because some boss thought that they could make their earnings call look better.
Yeah, that’s an exaggeration. But the point is, you’re taking on a debt that you owe to a bunch of ordinary people. Not venture capitalists, who are hedging their bets across multiple industries, and always guaranteeing themselves to be successful, as much as the combined powers of lawyers and insider trading can guarantee.
These are individuals, who won’t be getting any return on their investment, other than a product that will eventually, hopefully be worth the price they paid.
As I’ve mentioned, the reason why people would agree to participate in such a system is to try and free ourselves, at least a little bit, from the clutches of the capitalist investors. Asking for people’s money, up front, to fund development of a grassroots, independent product should be seen as something important, to be treated extremely seriously and held in high esteem.
Also also: can we make it that developers have only one Early Access game at a time. Finish the game before moving on to the next one, or abandon it and release it without the EA label.
YES! That’s maybe the most important point I could make, but I forgot to make it.
For sale: baby tiara, never worn.
Don’t call it stillborn, call it vaporware.
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Fuck that bigot
Someone needs to make a new template with that bigot photoshoped out
Found it on the Internet
Is that Aflleck? 😂
Who is that? I dunno if I’ve ever seen the original and don’t recognize the person
Stephen Crowder, he’s a right winger YouTuber.
It’s from a series where he’d set up a table like this at a university with a right-wing opinion on the front and debate students over it.
And by “debate”, they mean “talk over the other person, make a thousand shitty arguments a minute, and call it a win when the other person gets frustrated and walks away”
A spouse-abusing right-winger. That’s the key detail at this point.
In case anybody else is curious, Stephen Crowder is not the same person as David Crowder (stage name, Crowder), a popular Christian musician.
No one forced you to buy it. If you know it’s bad then just don’t buy it. If something is bad then I wouldn’t buy it and I don’t give a rat’s arse about it. Why can’t you do the same?
You can’t tell people how they must spent their own money.
I would consider selling something like a soundtrack acceptable but no game content dlc, absolutely.
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OST in a straight audio format has never been part of buying the game unless you ripped the files yourself. Be more entitled.
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I don’t pay for it, my man. If anyone making video game music was talented they’d be making actual music.
Define “actual music”. Does it become real music when it’s part of a movie sound track? Or when it’s played on pop radio stations? When it gets performed by middle schoolers in band classes? When the London Philharmonic performs it? When it reaches Billboard 100? When the artist wins a grammy? Do you need to be in ASCAP to make music? I’m a little confused as to what would differentiate music made for digital entertainment from any other music.
You’re just dead wrong for that. You can’t be serious?
dang, honestly one of the worst takes I’ve seen this year
Right? There are so many OST for games that are absolutely amazing. It’s “real” music whatever that was supposed to mean.
exactly. The first thing that came to my mind was Hollow Knight OST, if it’s not “real” then I guess I must’ve imagined how much it slaps
You don’t know shit about how remuneration for composers works, huh.
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🤡
I’m not a programmer or a gamer (or a musician), just curious. What does make it different?
They get paid for their work, obviously, but often a significant portion of their ongoing pay is based on soundtrack sales, whether physical or digital.
For one example, you can look into how Id screwed over Mick Gordon with the doom eternal OST, but it’s a long and frustrating read.
We as gamers who want this are completely outdone by the insane amount of money some people will spend in this market. Change my mind.
PS. I hate the DLC and micro transaction market as they exist today. But they make 1000x the old market so no way anything changes.
war thunder, destiny 2, what other games are there for the sole purpose of milking multiple payments of money out of people over a long period of time
gta 5 online probably counts too
Doesn’t even have to be the sole reason to be a money killer. WoW, CS2, LoL, Dota. All free to play because if you milk them for $1 for something small it still makes more money than the base game.
I think thor said it best, horse armor made more money than starcraft 2 expansion. Thus was the beginning of shit DLC cash grabs
horse armor made more money than starcraft 2 expansion. Thus was the beginning of shit DLC cash grabs
The most annoying thing about that aspect of the phenomenon is how it’s based completely and entirely on a false premise. When you do some crazy new shit and it takes off like gangbusters, you CAN’T JUST ASSUME THAT IT’S GOING TO BE POPULAR FOREVER.
Sometimes, a new product or service is immediately popular because it’s genuinely a hot seller. The day hotcakes were invented, people probably said they were selling like blowjobs. Then they somehow sold even better than blowjobs, so they became the new idiom. But the thing is, that’s not a guaranteed thing, for every product, and you shouldn’t base the future of your industry on your bullshit assumptions.
The goddamned horse armor sold like crazy because it was a new thing. The potential market for $2.50 worth of micro-content was beyond wide open. Huge numbers of people were ready to go “LOL, I’LL BUY THAT INSTEAD OF A CRUNCHWRAP SUPREME.” That should NOT have been an indicator of further success, in and of itself. But big business motherfuckers don’t want to use actual logic, or even real intuition. They just said to themselves “I really want this to be the new easy way of printing money,” and so they have spent all the following years FORCING that paradigm into existence.
But I think it’s a false paradigm. Nobody talks about the money that’s being left on the table, when such a huge percentage of the industry has been given over to microtransaction-based nonsense. The Battle Royale, MOBA, and Hero Shooter genres are as saturated as they’re going to be. What about people (like myself, for instance) who play absolutely none of those games?
I’ve never played them. I’m never going to play them. I’m not even refraining from playing them because I hate microtransactions. I just dislike them, as genres. They’re not my cup of tea. I play mostly play a mixture of sandbox games, RPGs, single-player action and shooter games, strategy games, and VR games, as well as a few survival/crafting/fighting games, like Terraria/Starbound.
I’m not alone. There are other people like me, who always want more intentional, in-depth content. If anybody doubts the possibility for better games to make money, you only need to look at Baldur’s Gate 3. That game has made shitloads of money. Money that corporate advocates of the “we can just print money with skins and stickers” philosophy can never have access to, unless they also pry open their wallets, and invest in real content.
Meanwhile, ConcernedApe is out there quietly adding more and more free features to an eight year old game: Stardew Valley. All while working on a completely new title that will release… eh, eventually.
I have no issue with people shipping unfinished products, as long as they’re transparent about it. But using it as a way to lower expectations for a buggy “final” product, while charging more for the updates, is just crummy. At least bundle it in, turn off “early access”, and raise the price appropriately. If it has DLC, the core game is “done” in my book.
Edit: thanks for the robust conversation on this thread.
I’ll add this clarification: clearly there are outliers and exceptions to all this. It’s entirely possible to have something incomplete, and still be worth treating like a full release, DLC and all.
To me, I think the key dividing line is determined by the overall “buginess” or “playability” of the product. If something has broken mechanics or is full of game-destroying bugs, and it negatively impacts the overall fun factor, that’s the case I’m talking about here. As a game’s main job is to package joy for other people, it’s pretty easy to see how a developer or publisher is just seeking a payday at your expense.
I often play a game called Sailwind. Very relaxing, but impressively deep sailing sim. It’s been early access for a couple of years, but the (solo-)dev is active, new features are added all the time. If he would release a paid, cosmetic dlc: I’d buy it in a heartbeat. I think it would be nicer than to “get him a coffee” or sub to his patreon.
What I’m trying to say is: not all early access is bad, not all paid dlc is plain greed. And the combo is not necessarily toxic.
I’ll give you that. Someone up the thread mentioned Dead Cells, which is/was in the same category for a while. I’ll revise my premise a bit, thank you.
Same for Wube and Factorio, and Re-Logic and Terraria. I think we’re on the 8th “final patch” for Terraria.
Capitalism makes great games.
people make games. capitalist extract wealth from the working class.
People give companies money for games they want to buy.
Motion Twin are finally wrapping up the updates of Dead Cells after the 35th (!) one. While they’re working on a board game and an animated series. Now, granted, they released several paid DLCs, but that didn’t stop them from pumping out free updates with content in between them
I’ll give them a pass. The game has been very playable at nearly every pre-release right up through the present. Granted, for a while there was no mid or late game, but what was on offer was relatively bug free and fun.
Terraria is a truly extreme case, the developers truly just can’t stop making updates.
Factorio isn’t amazing in this way, but the developers have a lot of integrity - they delivered their plans for 1.0, released some good extra updates, continue fixing bugs, and went to work developing paid DLC. I do suppose the DLC will come with a major update to the base game, but that’s also because they found they needed to make changes and additions for the expansion.
Minecraft has been going on this model for over a decade, too.
And people give it shit for some reason, there’s always people claiming the latest update ruined the game. MY GUY, you can literally choose what version of the game you want to play from within the launcher. Which is another underrated feature more games should have. Especially like minecraft does it.
I’m so hyped for the new stardew valley update. I’ll absolutely be buying the haunted chocalatier as well.
I’ve never seen a game in early access have dlc, only micro transactions for stuff like cosmetics and boosts. Can you give me an example of dlc on an early access game?
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1604030/V_Rising/
I guess you could define the DLC for this game as “microtransactions,” because it’s basically alternate cosmetic stuff, for equipment and housing decorations. But it’s sold under the label of “DLC,” and I don’t care to make a distinction between “microtransactions” and “DLC,” myself. One is a subset of the other.
If they have time to be making decorative extra shit, they should be spending that time working on the core game, which IS NOT FINISHED YET.
Yeah that’s what I was talking about. I have no problem with this. I mean, I won’t buy any of it, but cosmetic artists and riggers aren’t the same people who do level design and shit.
If you want to show me someone selling, like, an expansion for $20 on an early access game then I’ll be incredulous with you. But that link is just typical bad business. No reason for Valve to get involved banning it or whatever
The problem is that THE. GAME. IS. NOT. FUCKING. FINISHED.
That’s the problem. Every single nanosecond spent working on DLC/microtransaction shit is being STOLEN from the people who paid into the Early Access model.
This sounds personal. Who hurt you?
Nobody, in this specific situation.
See, this is a thing called EMPATHY. And a sense of justice, outside what I stand to gain, personally.
I believe people should be called out for doing shitty things, just in general. This seems to be an entirely alien concept for a lot of folks. I find that disturbing.
Your attitude betrays your passion. This level of anger is abnormal for the subject of cosmetics in early access games, even for empathetic people. I give both time and money to charity and I’m nowhere near your level of angry and emotional over cosmetics.
Whether you’ll admit it or not, something happened to make you this emotionally sensitive to this particular issue. I’m curious what it was
Believe what you want. I’ll have the satisfaction of being correct, either way.
You called for a more nuanced take from the other comment thread, but you would put cosmetics and expansions under the same label in this one because you “don’t care to make a distinction” - do you see the issue?
I don’t see any issue. I can have any opinion I want, with or without your permission.
Yes, but if you opinions are hypocritical, they’re free to point that out. It does undermine both you and this discussion.
In this case, there is nuance between cosmetics and expansion pack type dlc. One is obviously more atrocious, but if you’d engage honestly in the debate, you’d find that many people do distinguish between those things. And many people are asking you to provide examples of a game and you point to cosmetics. For many of us, that vastly changes the conversation.
It may not for you, but for us, that nuance matters. And if you’re going to jump on the badwagon in one post extolling the virtues of deeper conversation because otherwise Lemmy will become a sesspit, I dunno, maybe do some of that yourself. Be part of the solution, not the problem.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m gonna go see all the nuances other people are discussing.
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That’s a terrible excuse not to talk to someone, I don’t think I’d be talking to most people for more than a few messages if I did that. Also not everyone has spell check in their Lemmy Interface so there might not have been a red squiggle or maybe the user assumed that because it’s a very uncommon word it might not be in the dictionary.
not everyone has spell check in their Lemmy Interface
I don’t see how that can be true, unless someone is using some sort of text-only, Unix-style browser. All modern browsers will load the rich-text-enabled text entry box, unless you go far out of your way to defeat that feature. I tested the word in the text entry box, and it came up as misspelled. You shouldn’t go to great lengths to disable a spellcheck feature, unless you have ABSOLUTELY PERFECT SPELLING.
If you do, and then you misspell some shit, that is the perfect definition of living in a glass house and chucking rocks. You deserve what’s coming to you, if you do it.
Fuck off, no you weren’t.
People who want to engage in discussion don’t find a flimsy, meaningless excuse to hurl insults instead. Be less transparent before you try to troll, please.
You are right that I was unnecessarily rude. I apologize.
But I honestly do want to know why you just ignore the red misspelling squiggle, when you misspell a word. I guess I have mild OCD or something, because I simply CANNOT ignore that shit. It’s an absolutely foreign concept, for someone to just be like “nah, I’m right about that word. I know better than the actual dictionary.”
Again: I’m really, truly not trying to be rude anymore. I’m genuinely trying to understand your behavior.
Yes, you can have any opinion you want. And no one needs to take you seriously. Your senseless unhinged rambling speaks plenty for itself.
Fair enough. But I’m still correct, whether you like it or not.
You are insufferable. Hope you enjoy your debate.
You misspelled “correct.”
I’m right. You’re wrong. Pay attention to me and try to learn.
Offhand, I know ARK released paid DLC while still in early access.
Yeah see that’s absurd
Star Citezen, right?
Do they sell expansions? Or just ships? I’m on original basic backer and don’t even know lol
Tower Unite 😒
Early Access can be easily abused. That’s why I don’t bother with it at all.
As I mentioned to someone else, that’s a shame. The only alternative to Early Access = developers having to go hat-in-hand, begging for up-front investments from heartless corporations. They increasingly won’t fund anything that isn’t fit to be saddled with a games-as-a-service price-gouging model.
When Early Access is abused, it’s destroying that necessary system for all of us, developers and consumers alike. If you want games that aren’t 100 percent mainstream, money-sucking garbage, you should want Early Access to stick around. That’s why I think it should, ya know, suck less, and NOT be abused.
Good point, but Crowder can suck a dick.
Oh, for sure. I forgot that was even him. In twenty or thirty years, this useful meme template will be the entirety of his legacy. I find that funny, so I’ll continue using the template.
Well fuck me. I always thought that was Tom Hanks. No idea who “Crowder” is.
Some chud right wing grifter who has terrible debate skills yet positions himself as your typical “common sense” thinker. He used to be the voice of Brain on Arthur. He’s Canadian but larps as if he’s a red blooded American. He’s also a domestic abuser. Nice guy.
We can keep the meme, but give him what he deserves - 30 seconds more in paint with the eraser tool keeps dickheads in the past 👍
Agreed. I will do that in the future.
Here’s a better template
Who is crowder and what did he do?
I heard he is a nazi
failed comedian turned right wing grifter recently exposed as a raging misogynist, and now trying to bolster his reputation by doing high profile media campaigns he calls journalism but are really specious, salacious smear campaigns.
i mean he might be onto something with this blackrock thing but he’s probably the worst possible person to bring it to light.
I’m not entirely sure what his deal is or why he’s famous, but I’ve seen a handful of videos that he’s posted to YouTube.
He’ll set up a little table like the one in the meme at a college campus, and his sign will read something divisive and clickbaity like “there are only two genders CHANGE MY MIND”
He basically invites people to debate him on camera, but he isn’t sincere in any way and the whole setup is just a mechanism for him to generate content of him owning the libs. For instance, he uses a system where there’s just one microphone between him and the other person, but he always holds the microphone and he can cut people off any time he wants. Any time he loses ground in an argument he’ll say something like “the point isn’t to be right; it’s to change my mind” or some dumb shit.
He’s a right wing guy with dumb opinions and he argues in bad faith. That’s pretty much his whole deal
Damn thank you for telling me will certainly avoid using that meme
There was a video that came out a while back of Crowder being abusive to his pregnant wife and acting like an all around entitled fucking man baby.
Then she divorced him and now Crowder wants No Fault Divorce to end because a married woman is property or some such shit.
I’m pretty sure you’re threatening him with a good time.
His affinity for homoeroticism and drag is even stronger than your average manosphere chud.
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