The last panel applies to every other social media, just replace the spying country.
Right? Now do Facebook.
That last part is becoming less and less relevant … someone is spying but it isn’t for the benefit or under the control of a country. More and more, the spying is meant more for the purposes of commerce and finance, for money and control. For business interests which is what major governments mainly represent.
At this point, the line between business and government in the US is almost non-existent, so definitely still a government using your data for the propaganda machine.
Reminds of my favourite description of the US …
“The US isn’t a country, it’s a corporation with a military”
And as soon as the government wants it, most companies hand it right over.
And it doesn’t matter who or why, either - as soon as someone hoards other people’s data, someone else will try to steal it.
surveillance capitalism…
Lemmy begs to differ
There are multiple instances pushing propaganda and most data can just be scraped by bots. It may be harder, but capitalism finds a way.
The multiple instances:
The last panel also hurts us - fellow non-americans :(
Yes, and that’s why US companies aren’t banned by the US. The foreign power having so much propaganda power was the danger.
So if an American company collects user data and sells it on the open market to a hostile foreign nation, and accepts money to run propaganda, that’s A-OK?
That capitalism baby! I suppose Congress can at least control who Facebook et al. are selling to through sanctions and such.
They could but they haven’t, so this ban is just racist economic protectionism.
I’m not sure what race has to do with economic protectionism, but it’s really a combination of all of the above.
If I wanna get my propaganda from more than one world power, that’s my right under the first amendment. Or it was.
Same reason why China bans a shitload of sites. It’s fine when you do it to your own citizens
Jokes on you, I use lemmy
On Arch tho?
Jokes on you, I use lemmy
Literally made by communists
Jokes on you, you use it too
I’m impervious to communism, comrade.
edit fuck!
They out here. Both of them. This post smells just like one tbh.
? Who’s out here?
The people that countries pay to pretend to be normal everyday users in order to spread state propaganda?
Edit: in this case ‘both’ refers to the image particularly portraying two countries
That’s not what the meme is about. It’s about the company collecting data and giving it to their government
Edit: and adjusting the algorithm to their favor
I’m pretty sure the NSA and its chinese counterpart never heard about ActivityPub.
The House of Saud apparently found out about and took issue to blahaj.zone so who knows
Yeah but not Facebook and Twitter and other American ones. Right?
You’re on the Fediverse. Most of the people here are already actively avoiding Facebook and Xitter. Unfortunately, getting the US, EU, etc. to ban American propaspyware companies is, uh, extremely unlikely. China, however, has banned them long ago, which is why I don’t see why people think it’s hypocritical of the US government to ban Chinese social media.
But they claim that China banning the apps is authoritarian. The hypocrisy isnt in banning the app, it’s in their claims about motivation to do so.
Yea but we’re not getting anywhere with “tolerance 100%”
The Chinese government is a tyrannical undemocratic dictatorship and I’m OK with not tolerating them or their propaganda wing.
Have you tried actually comparing the content on Tiktok vs other social networks? Or are you just regurgitating some talking point?
From the few years I’ve been on Tiktok, it is by far the least toxic and bigoted social network I’ve seen, Lemmy included.
I’m no fan of China, but if we’re considering “being less bigoted” to be commie propaganda, then we need to take a look in the mirror. Absolutely throwing the baby out with the bath water hereThe
ChineseAmerican government is a tyrannical undemocratic dictatorship and I’m OK with not tolerating them or their propaganda wing.Fixed that for you.
You fixed nothing, just added some whataboutisim nonsense.
Try saying negative stuff about China on .ml I doubt that they are not completely undermined by the Chinese intelligence. (They delete every post critical about china).
So being vigilant is the only way to avoid getting manipulated.
.ml might just be useful idiots tbh. But I remember speedrunning an /r/sino ban and that took me all of 1 minute, with a comment that wasn’t even critical about China. It was a thread about how it’s awesome that the west can’t live without China for 5G connectivity and I said that “maybe it isn’t all that great that an entire industry has been entirely centralized to one country” just to see if an absolutely lukewarm take would get banned. It did.
Yeah, it’s strange. Like even slight criticism. I mean that’s okay, but what about actual constructive discussions? None!
If you are not allowed to criticize a system, that system is inheritly flawed. But that’s my personal take on this.
Someone ban this man NOW
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I haven’t seen a proof of intelligence on .ml yet.
Not sure that it’s “most” anymore. Propaganda huffers realized there was more new land to destroy / minds to influence & they had to come settle here too
Yeah, only AMIERICAN companies can spy on our citizens and flood them with propaganda!
USA! USA! USA!
Of course it’s more worrying to the American government when it’s a foreign government spying on their citizens. It’s not really a double standard but rather just sensible from the gov’s pov.
This is my problem with it.
Social media, the big ones that everyone uses, are a blight on society. They are worse than cancer and they need regulation and control.
Really, the bigger problem is the monetization of data, and the ever-deeper orificices that they try to dig into for said data.
But I digress.
At the same time, they are private industries running a public (ish) forum.
Historically, we’d expect the forum owners to be responsible about the content they are presenting, and ensure that it doesn’t reflect poorly on them or their community.
In other words…you wouldn’t see the grocer keeping hate speech up on his community board…but if you did, I’m sure a lot of people would choose a different grocer.
The social media giants are taking a page right out of the book of Mormon, and gotten itself so engrained into modern society that trying to separate yourself from it will, at some level, result in social exile. That’s bad.
Now theres a company backed by an increasingly adversarial nation-state that is in charge of a shit ton of that data. That’s bad.
There’s a lot of bad. Ultimately, it’s a highly nuanced issue.
Those are valid criticisms, but can equally be applied to all of the rest of our main social media platforms.
I’m not seeing a big difference here between TikTok and YouTube except that one is not able to be influenced or backdoored by the US government and the other is.
In essence the optics here look an awful lot like the US simply doesn’t like other nations mining their citizens data that they want for themselves, and having foreign control of the type of news being fed by their algorithm.
Just remember that before Snowden dropped a dime on the NSA, similar suspicions sounded pretty wacky too
In essence the optics here look an awful lot like the US simply doesn’t like other nations mining their citizens data that they want for themselves, and having foreign control of the type of news being fed by their algorithm.
Well duh? Why do you think China blocks a lot of the US social media?
To prevent cancer
But they haven’t blocked all social media, just prevented their citizens from interacting with other people
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But… US companies are allowed to sell the data of citizens to other countries? Do they want some taxes before they give arbitrary your info that is literally unusable for anything aside from customizing ads
This argument bleeds from so many wounds! With how much could have Cuckerberg bribe both parties?
It’d be much more surprising to see the Awmerican government manipulating the algorithms etc to push propoganda narratives whereas it’s a pretty safe assumption that’s the case on tiktok.
Edit: Sorry, do downvoters think the American government is adjusting social media algorithms? Or do folks not believe China would do so?
Bruh, facebook just changed their terms of service to be pro US right wing propaganda…
You don’t get the difference between changing the algorithms vs allowing different content?
And also didn’t notice the vocal feedback about the change vs say hearing nothing about any algorithm changes?
You know what they say about assuming…
Well I guess you’re both asses then
To be clear, you imagine the Chinese government, which has a large group dedicated to censoring all internet communication/social media behind the Great Firewall, has decided that it would be rude to tweak algorithms to push similar narratives to what the Party would push?
Or what, China’s very public efforts to shape global narratives only goes as far as public and global policy but they respect the sanctity of your social media feed?
In this house, we only like propaganda that’s covering up genocide. /s
China also covers up genocides… as does the US… As does Russia, as does almost every nation-state.
The Tiktok ban was mainly instigated because tiktok spread news about the genocide in Gaza
China has its genocides going on to ya know
Nice whataboutism, I guess?
In that case, “in this house” we like Tiktok?
I happen to like that tiktok spreads information about the genocide in Gaza, which is being shadowbanned on the western platforms.
Context is important. The current context of the tiktok ban is that it’s hard for the US to control the political message with that big of a platform not under US control.
I happen to dislike censorship, even if it is done by the west.
I happen to like that tiktok spreads information about the genocide in Gaza,
So in the interest of that, you chose to deny that Tiktok is used to push CCP propaganda.
which is being shadowbanned on the western platforms.
Some of the Western platforms run by billionaires, yes, whom I explicitly compared to the CCP in the original comment.
Context is important. The current context of the tiktok ban is that it’s hard for the US to control the political message with that big of a platform not under US control.
You think it’s the US government which is pushing Facebook and Twitter to censor Palestinian voices?
I happen to dislike censorship, even if it is done by the west.
But you’ll tolerate it, if it pushes one view you do like? Or just if it’s not done by the West?
So in the interest of that, you chose to deny that Tiktok is used to push CCP propaganda.
There’s a difference in not knowing and denying.
Some of the Western platforms run by billionaires, yes, whom I explicitly compared to the CCP in the original comment.
Yeah, when you ignored the context of the OP.
You think it’s the US government which is pushing Facebook and Twitter to censor Palestinian voices?
Are you always this nitpicky?
But you’ll tolerate it, if it pushes one view you do like? Or just if it’s not done by the West?
No. I prefer a wide range of different news sources where I can judge the biases. I can still get good information from Tiktok if I know that I should be critical concerning anything about China’s policy.
So you’d prefer it if Facebook/Twitter/Google/Microsoft/Amazon are the only ones in control of mass online discourse? (That’s the type of strawman you’re constructing of me)
There’s a difference in not knowing and denying.
As I said elsewhere, knowing it but still denying it, is considerably worse than being ignorant or confused.
Yeah, when you ignored the context of the OP.
… what context in the OP did I ignore?
Are you always this nitpicky?
This is what you said:
The current context of the tiktok ban is that it’s hard for the US to control the political message with that big of a platform not under US control.
I didn’t realize that it was nitpicky to dispute a point.
No. I prefer a wide range of different news sources where I can judge the biases. I can still get good information from Tiktok if I know that I should be critical concerning anything about China’s policy.
You shouldn’t be getting any of your information directly from social media. Furthermore, propaganda is like advertising - you are not immune to it. The “I’m too smart to be fooled” approach just makes you a mark.
So you’d prefer it if Facebook/Twitter/Google/Microsoft/Amazon are the only ones in control of mass online discourse? (That’s the type of strawman you’re constructing of me)
I would prefer it if none of them did, and if Facebook or Twitter or Google catches a ban, I won’t be defending them as news sources which don’t spread propaganda, “and if they did, so what?”
The United Nations Human Rights Council doesn’t seem to think so. It put this to bed two years ago. https://www.euractiv.com/section/eu-china/news/setback-for-the-west-un-body-rejects-historic-debate-on-chinas-human-rights-record/
You should actually read that article and not just the title. What happened there was entirely political.
Id rather listen to China’s own words: https://www.cpiml.net/liberation/2020/08/chinas-concentration-camps-for-uyghurs-in-chinas-own-words
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i like my all-american freedom and liberty data collection and propaganda
FreeDumb™️
I found it interesting that this Tiktok regulation talk hit peak fervor around the time that youths were using tiktok to fully grasp the severity of the Israeli genocide of Palestinians in Gaza. Meanwhile mainstream corporate media was painting a very different and dishonest story of the genocide.
We need broad regulation for social media in the US, not cherry picked fervor for political reasons.
That was the catalyst that made them realize they didn’t have the sway to control the narrative on tik Tok and that they had to destroy it.
Problem is that insta also had the same content and plenty of folks saw it there too but the focus was on Chinese influence.
They already knew they could control zuckyboy though.
It was being taken down on insta.
Eventually but my partner still saw the genocide there.
Yet they had the excuse and idiots like op are cheering on their censorship
Actual privacy laws like the Eu? Nah let’s just make an american version of the Great Firewall.
“It’s okay that the CCP pushes propaganda because billionaires do it too” - Tiktok defenders
Reader’s Note - There has been no evidence submitted showing any of the allegations towards TikTok are true. In fact TikTok publicly embarked on a project to silo all US Data.
Lol, I don’t give a shit about tik tok, I’m more worried about the First Amendment implications.
They could just declare Lemmy instances to be “foreign propaganda” and ban every instance they don’t like.
(there are several people in this thread who would not mind banning certain lemmy instances on this basis)
What kind of propaganda is the CGP pushing, exactly? Is it with us in the room, right now?
This has been known for years.
I promise, the CCP does not need you to play devil’s advocate; they advocate plenty well for themselves.
The first one is NCRI and the second one is paywalled.
NCRI is known for hit songs like -
Colleges that deplatform conservatives are anti-semitic;
DEI causes violence, and my favorite;
Luigi Mangione’s support means the left are digital insurgents
The paper referenced gives an overview of its methodology and its data.
The three ‘hit songs’ you cite appear to actually be:
and
- Glorification of Luigi Mangione could result in a feedback loop of violence like 4chan did with the alt-right (I agree, but I don’t see it as necessarily a bad thing)
Use https://12ft.io/ to bypass the paywall if you’re interested in past discourse on the matter.
Lol, fair play, I editorialized the titles too. But really once you click into them it’s super obvious these guys have an axe to grind. For example, (from the relevant paper) they state that serving up less Anti CCP content is a bias. But they compare it to YouTube and Instagram. Two services pretty famous for taking people down far right tracks if you let their algorithm auto play. So in this case even a neutral position is going to have less Anti-CCP propaganda.
And the entire paper is flawed in this way. The baseline they establish is itself flawed. They also claim causation but can only show correlation with their skewed baseline.
Yea, they were comparing tiktok to other american-owned social media sites, which are guilty of exactly the same thing themselves.
Any site that doesn’t explicitly push anti chinese content is going to look like a pro-chinese bias
The researchers found that while TikTok might not deliver more pro-CCP content, it did deliver less anti-CCP content than the rival platforms.
Umm, that’s not really propaganda, homie. That’s simple censorship. There’s a difference.
The very next thing said in the article:
The team next looked at engagement to see if this explained why anti-CCP content was performing less well. But it found that TikTok users “liked or commented on anti-CCP content nearly four times as much as they liked or commented on pro-CCP content, yet the search algorithm produced nearly three times as much pro-CCP content”. This didn’t happen on Instagram or YouTube.
Yes. I already said it was censorship. Again: how is this pro-CCP propaganda? Do you understand the difference between censorship and propaganda?
Yes. I already said it was censorship. Again: how is this pro-CCP propaganda? Do you understand the difference between censorship and propaganda?
If you don’t think that suppressing content that goes against a point of view whilst simultaneously boosting content that agrees with a point of view is propaganda, I suppose you must think Twitter’s recent developments over the past two years (or so? Time is getting fuzzy) are not a propaganda effort either.
Dude is just arguing semantics, that “propaganda” necessarily has to be a misleading message in favor of its sender.
Of course, tailoring of information by omission is also propaganda.
My point is: if we all would use a more broad definition of the term propaganda, instead of calling nothing but political messaging we didn’t like propaganda, we’d all live in a more politically literate society.
I think this meme actively reduces media literacy.
OK, but find me an exact quote that actually says that. Not something that sorta sounds like that, but that exactly.
Good luck criticizing a user’s choice of platform hoping to get them to leave. I’m just happy to see one less corporate platform.
“You really shouldn’t jump rope on the train tracks. It’s not safe.”
“What’s not safe about jumping rope? Everybody jump’s rope.”
“It’s not jumping rope that’s the problem, it’s the train tracks.”
“I think I’m smart enough to know if a train is coming. It’s not like the train is coming for me specifically. I’m not that important. I don’t have anything valuable enough for the train to take from me anyw-“ splat
Americans complaining about other countries meddling in their affairs is such a hilarious hypocrisy. You guys have been the worst for ruining other countries around the world.
Well, yeah. That’s why we know it should be banned.
This article from 2024 gives a pretty good rundown as to why using this reasoning to ban Tiktok will set a very bad precedent:
If the govt cared about your data privacy, they would create data collection regulations that they could then use to ban tiktok if/when they violate them.
Disclaimer: I am not saying Tiktok is a great app with zero issues. This is a concern about causing long term problems by using a short term easy solution.
And the very next day:
We were trailblazers for a time. Other than that, we were always kind of fucked as a democratic system.
What time was that? (genuinely curious)
Late 18th century. The chaos of the French Revolution arguably diluted its viability as an example to other countries, despite the structure of democratic government being objectively better, so you can argue that we were still on the cutting-edge through the 19th century, even, when most countries were still autocracies or constitutional monarchies with extremely questionable de jure voting systems.
I would argue as late as the 1950s, our democratic structure was closer to average than below-average, but by the 1970s, what gave the US more in-common with other developed democracies was that we had extensive practice with our democratic system; by then our structure was not just hopelessly outdated, but a structure that no one in their right mind would take seriously as a foundation for a new government. Come the fall of most of the single-party Soviet-backed regimes of the 1990s, and the only countries we actually beat out for being a ‘good democracy’ are ones that… well, are only questionably democracies to begin with. And even then, most of them have structures that are superior to our’s; only a tradition of civic participation has led us to hobble on as long as we have without becoming an outright authoritarian state.
Though this might be the last month I can say that, which says a lot about the failures of our shitshow of an attempt at implementing democracy.
Late 18th century
The majority of the population could not vote, either due to their skin color, sex, or degree of property ownership (colony by colony/state by state as I recall).
The majority of the population could not vote, either due to their skin color, sex, or degree of property ownership (colony by colony/state by state as I recall).
Yeah, you should look into other governments of the period.
Just to be specific, your argument is that the United States of the late 18th century can be considered a “trail blazer” in terms of democratic achievement. You are agreeing to my assertion that the franchise can be used as a measure of democracy, and you are asserting that the United States was uniquely forward in this area. This follow up statement is limiting this to a comparison of similar governments of the 18th century?
Late 18th century, yes. And if I hear pop history myths about the Iroquois, I will be irritated.
Which is a comparison that makes complete sense. When you say that someone is leading the way, you are clearly referring to them being at the forefront at the time when they were leading the way. Any system that was a trail blazer 100+ years ago should be outdated by now, unless progress stopped or went backwards in the meantime.
And how was the situation in the rest of the world?
Before any of us were alive. Some would say before centralized banking in the early 20th
Democracy is the worst form of government…
Except for all other forms.
Probably no nation ever should last for more than 100 years. That seems to be about the time it takes for things to go bad, even if they were good to start with.
And of course there are countries like modern Russia that should have lasted for about 5 years.
And one naturally says the reason why we are in such a mess is not simply that we have wrong systems for doing things—whether they be technological, political, or religious—but we have the wrong people. The systems may be alright, but they are in the wrong hands, because we are all in various ways self-seeking, lacking in wisdom, lacking in courage, afraid of death, afraid of pain, unwilling really to cooperate with others, unwilling to be open to others.
—Alan Watts, Mind Over Mind
Hybrid Regime with democratic features
Now do one with Xinnie the Pooh
Neither he nor his country seem to be on their way out currently. Same old authoritarianism as usual.
I think “For a minute or two” is a more apt answer.
Do hollywood next (aka the propaganda machine of the US).
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So long, and thanks for all the fish.
A republic you say?
Republic just means a country without monarchy.
China is a Republic
North Korea is a Republic
The US is a Democratic Republic
Where do you think the name of the political party “Democratic-Republicans” come from?
North Korea is also. Democratic Republic too!
So much good, amirite?
xD
Technically true. But instead of two-party system, they get one-party system. Decision is overrated anyways!
Hail the the supreme leader 🫡 /s
Hey now! The US is much more democratic, because we get to choose between two hand picked selections from our oligarchs.
I mean yeah the US absolutely is much more democratic than North Korea, but it’s the lowest of bars
Oh my god, can you people shut up with this already.
The senate, and SCOTUS are verrrry democratic.
Not having primaries for either of the two available parties is very democratic.
The electoral college is the most democratic way to make sure the minority voice maintains a dictatorship.
If he meant “this system isn’t democratic enough”, hard agree. It sounded like the “the founders wanted a republic and we should stop trying to be a democracy” you hear from MAGAs.
When a person says the US is a republic, not a democracy, I take it as them defining “democracy” as a “pure democracy” only, despite the fact that there are other kinds, such as republics. Kinda like saying “that’s not a dog, it’s a Labrador.”
Well, the founders wanted an oligarchy, and we have an oligarchy…
The first step to fixing the problem, is admitting we have a problem: The US was never intended to be a democracy for anyone except oligarchs, and it’s still not a democracy for anyone but oligarchs.
On paper, it was a rejection of monarchism, so a step away from centralized control - but, in the same sort of way as the Magna Carta, where they didn’t make the leap all the way to popular democracy, and instead sought to partially democratize power only among the ruling class. More democratic features have been added since then (suffrage, equal protection clause, etc.), though not nearly enough. IMO we do need to completely throw the system out and start over, only carrying over things for the sake of streamlining/continuity.
But I like fish.
He wrote “it’s not a democracy, it’s a republic” originally.
No I didn’t.
I was explaining my fish preferences.
I tried to hold on to the red snapper but I took what was in the box.
No need to keep commenting
Do you not love fish?
Why not? It’s fun. Plus I hate it when the herring bones get stuck in my teeth.
A republic is a kind of democracy.
So long, and thanks for all the fish
Because democracy is an abstract name for a system and republic is the more concrete result of that system
In other words, a republic is a kind of democracy.
Blah blah blah “we built our own great firewall and painted it red white and blue, and even banned the use of vpns to get to foreign sites which even China doesn’t do. We’re totally the good guys BTW.”
Americans are so fucking stupid, oh my god.
@EDIT: So it turns out the RESTRICT Act, that I was thinking of, and which banned VPNs, was shot down. And the current and approved Tiktok ban law doesn’t do that. So. My b. This one is on me. I stand by “Americans are so fucking stupid oh my god”, though, because you’re still cheering for loss of net liberty.
as an American yeah, seeing this post is just depressing. like people are actively cheering a loss of internet freedom. the government doesn’t care about bytedance or else capcut would have to go too. they care about controlling information, tiktok has been essential in issues like Palestine, even if I don’t like the platform itself I can admit that.
Also 100% clear that facebook, google, twitter… are all doing the same but for US intelligence
I think the idea of the government banning entire websites (or really any information in general) is horrifying. The fact that so many people in America seem to be enthusiastic or at least indifferent to new forms of government censorship shows how far along we are to complete fascism. Information is meant to be free, regardless of whether you agree with it or not. The fact that’s we’re having these conversations is disgusting.
banned the use of vpns to get to foreign sites which even China doesn’t do
What are you talking about? The GFC tries its absolute best to block VPNs and other circumvention methods.
I guess they’re not banned, but they’re blocking them.
Americans are so fucking stupid oh my god
Coming from someone who confidently believed a law that didn’t exist was in effect, these words are a bit flat.
Better words would be “people in general are so fucking stupid”, and you are not immune to that.
when exactly did that happen
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“Freedom is when you let foreign governments spy on your citizens”
What do you suggest? Allow a foreign nation to destroy you from within?
Actually fight against that rather than pretending too, Israel and Russia have destroyed the US from within far more than China… Maybe tackle the active objective threats rather than potential ones
Russia is a menace to US’s peasantry, as they might drag the US to a(nother) proxy war.
Whereas China is a menace to the US’s aristocracy, in the sense that China is currently richer than the US of A, and despite thousands of articles about how “CHINA’S ECONOMY WILL COLLAPSE TOMORROW!” for the past 15 years, it has yet to happen.
Ergo, the US government won’t do shit about Russia, but will bend over backwards for anything related to China.
Non Americans do that all the time, exceept we have at least one more choice than americans.
They’re suspiciously selective about what foreign interference they’re ok with.
Yes please
The US is doing it just fine on our own.
Hell, an election here just voted in fascism like its the 1920s again.
Actual regulations on data privacy and algorithmic manipulation. It’s not that complicated. The EU figured it out. Fuck me, my own country, Brazil, a third world hellhole, figured it out. We have very strict rules on data protection.
Ofc, this would never happen because 1. Big corpos own the US government and actual regulation on privacy would hurt THEM, and 2. The US Government actually WANTS algorithmic manipulation to happen, except they want THEIR algorithmic manipulation and not anyone else’s.
even banned the use of vpns to get to foreign sites
Do you have a source for this?
I did, but then I realised I’m wrong about the VPN thing.
I was thinking of the RESTRICT act from 2023, which did ban the usage of VPNs (and was the “Original” Tiktok ban law)
Apparently in the year and change I spent not really caring (look, this is an American problem, y’all slam your metaphorical penises in the car door at least three times a day. And I have my own country’s dick-slammings to care about. I only hear about it when it’s particularly egregious or when I see a meme like this that is cheering for the dick-slamming) the RESTRICT act got shot down, and another one was quickly drafted.
The one that was approved does not ban VPNs. So. That’s on me. My b.
Anyway, given y’all are under Trump’s thumb now, I give it eeeeh six months before RESTRICT 2: Censorship Boogaloo starts making the rounds.
I’m not American though.
Replace the yous for theys. Same thing.
Right, I just wanted to correct the mistake
Theys Americans is so dumb.
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